India couldn’t beat us in 1965, can’t beat the stronger Pakistan of today either

Published: September 6, 2017
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No 19 Squadron pilots who struck Pathankot on 6 September 1965, with squadron commander 'Nosey' Haider standing third from right. PHOTO: CAP/PAF

In the early hours of September 6, 1965, India initiated an unannounced military offensive against Pakistan. General Jayanto Nath Chaudhry’s self-confidence had gone a “peg” too far. His famous dream of “drinking at Lahore Gymkhana” that evening was soon shattered by brave Pakistani troops. India did gain some territory, but ended up losing a lot more.

Pakistan’s unexpected response and India’s heavy losses of men, material and territory brought the Indian confidence-plus-ambition down several notches and suddenly, negotiations became an option. The Tashkent Agreement ended hostilities and the (mis)adventure came to an end. It wasn’t the first misadventure and it certainly wasn’t to be the last.

Hard as it may be to admit, India did learn a valuable lesson from the 1965 blunder. National and military ego may have forced it into a state of denial and delusion, but India did learn of Pakistan’s military valour and might. Sometimes, a person smaller in size may have a heart much bigger and mightier than a person that is larger.

Owing to several factors including a hugely flawed Partition plan, Pakistan and India have been in a seemingly perpetual hate-hate relationship ever since independence. This mutual aversion has borne nothing but rotten fruits of poverty, arms race, instability and suffering for the people on both sides.

The real lesson to be learnt from 1965, or from any war for that matter, is that wars are not the solution to any problem. Wars may only satiate egos and never bring any relief for the masses. The idiotic urge to have a drink at Gymkhana or to add Lahore to its territory brought nothing but death and displacement for soldiers and civilians. Lives were lost in vain, especially since General Chaudhry eventually had to have that peg far away from Lahore with fear and regret replacing confidence and ambition in his heart.

As today marks Pakistan’s 52nd Defence Day, it is about time India comes to terms with the harsh truth – India does have a problem and Pakistan is not it. The problem is India’s inability to accept Pakistan as a reality. It’s the trouble India has with bringing itself to the negotiating table on all issues that are hampering peace, stability and progress on both sides of the border. They blame Pakistan for aiding the Kashmir insurgency and simultaneously boast about their own role in destabilising Pakistan. They openly announce their desire of “isolating” Pakistan globally, yet India continues to sponsor terrorism within and against Pakistan.

The anti-Pakistan rhetoric is far more popular in India than the anti-India rhetoric is in Pakistan. The Indian media seems obsessed with Pakistan, inciting more and more hate against its own neighbour. India has followed this path for better part of the past 70 years and it now needs to ask itself if it worked. Fifty-two years after discovering that it could not intimidate its neighbour, not this one at least, India may have changed its strategy but not its approach. War-mongering is still a permanent feature of its political discourse, several Indian channels love to present imaginary scenarios where Pakistan may be defeated. That is exactly where India can actually defeat Pakistan – in an imaginary war.

Had it been a super power like the US, India’s obsession with controlling and harassing other countries may have made sense. The US only started to wreak havoc with other territories after it had reasonably addressed local problems. India wants to behave like an adult while it still needs a diaper (pun intended), due to the absence of adequate toilet facilities. Across the border, Pakistan too has a lot of domestic issues it needs to address before it can find time or money to spend on a pointless war of egos.

So let us deal with our mess while you deal with yours, and I assure you that both Pakistan and India will be better off. The billions that you spend on military and the billions that we spend are being snatched from the hungry, uneducated, sick and the poor. For what? No matter how strong your tanks or how advanced your weapons, all they can do is bring death and devastation – not just to your enemies, but also to your own people.

The 1965 war should have made India see peaceful co-existence as the only option, but it didn’t. Polluted by populism or powers that benefit from a perpetual conflict in this region, India is still far from a productive dialogue with Pakistan. The days of threats are over, there are no pegs waiting for your generals in Gymkhana or elsewhere in Pakistan. India couldn’t do it in 1965 and it cannot now either against a much stronger and better equipped Pakistan defence. Peace is the only way forward, the sooner India sees that the better.

zafar.zulqurnain.sahi

Zafar Zulqurnain Sahi

A Lawyer by profession. A Gold Medalist in LLB from Punjab University and has a LLM degree from University of Warwick, UK. He is also a former Member Provincial Assembly of Punjab (2008-2013). He tweets @ZafarSahi (twitter.com/ZafarSahi)

The views expressed by the writer and the reader comments do not necessarily reflect the views and policies of The Express Tribune.

  • Kulbhushan Yadav

    hmmm then who was surrendering in 1971? I always thought it was Niyazi surrendering to General Arora.Recommend

  • Kulbhushan Yadav

    This blog is the evidence of what is wrong with Pakistani education system. Apparently 1971 never happened in Pakistani history books. 1965 war was started by Pakistan so India was merely defending itself. Not only India defended itself very well, it also captured more than 700 sq miles of Pakistani territory. Pakistan on the other hand, was humiliated by a defeat as well as lost the face in world community. No wonder no one came to Pakistan’s rescue in 1971. Kargill was another such shameful event for Pakistan.But then, the kind of bravado shown in the blog, it appears Pakistanis have not learn a lesson. With such rotten educational system, how would they?Recommend

  • KlingOn2K

    Really?! Is that the best you can do in this day and age? There’s the internet you know. “Facts” are easily verifiable.Recommend

  • wb

    This reads like the result of an elementary school assignment for little girls, titled “Write an essay on My father is my hero.” And even the poor daughter of a drunken, broken, abusive father will write, “My father is a superhero, he can beat up Iron Man. He can beat up Superman. My father is the greatest!!!”

    By the way, elementary arithmetic would have taught you that between 1965 and 2017, there was another year called 1971 and another year called 1999. Basic arithmetic, dear.

    Another thing dear, apart from military we can always beat you with scathing comment and comebacks. Because, some of us are Brahmins and you’re a Muslim.Recommend

  • addo

    “So let us deal with our mess while you deal with yours, and I assure you that both Pakistan and India will be better off.”

    Agrees. But then tell your govt to SHUT UP ABOUT KASHMIR, because it is and will forever be part of INDIA. The more you talk about “solidarity with the kashmiri people” the more we think you are trying to break our motherland and therefore we have to destabilize Balochistan to counter. The only way is to accept LOC as international border.Recommend

  • G. Din

    Even if we assume your interpretation of 1965, there is this nagging year 1971 we must talk about. If you had been as strong as you contend in 1965, how did you lose half the country so soon after 1965?
    self-serving history that Pakistanis continuously invent. Recommend

  • rajesh thacker

    Bunch of baloney!Recommend

  • numbersnumbers

    Note that author carefully ignores Pakistani “peacefull coexistence” Good Taliban terrorist proxies that have been tasked with destabilizing neighboring countries the past decades!Recommend

  • Rahul

    Why don’t you guys celebrate the 1971 war. That was another decisive victory.Recommend

  • silversurfer

    Kashmir runs in our blood! We will FIGHT you till end of time! From Khalistan to Manipur – from kerala to odisha we will shake your country up! Kashmir is ours and always will be only a matter of time before it becomes one with us!Recommend

  • silversurfer

    We cut you out from central asia forever in 48 and defended against a 3 times larger force in 65! So what if had 71 which was already on the cards since 1955. Ask General Kishan Pal what he says about Kargil. We had you by the throat in Kargil!Recommend

  • SuperNeo™

    You were Dumb in 1965 and You are DUMBER Today.
    you were living in Fools paradise then You are fools paradise today.

    Nothing has changed from 1965 to 2017 .Recommend

  • silversurfer

    In 1948 Pakistan cut india out from central asia forever! Pakistan defended itself against a 3 times larger adversary in 1965. Read Gen Kishan Pal’s statements about Kargil. He clearly mentions india did not win anything in Kargil. 71 was bound to happen so whats the big deal! Not even 10 US could have saved East Pakistan. Pakistan is now much stronger with its military industrial complex being better than india as admitted by indian generals themselves. Any misadventure will cost india dearly.Recommend

  • HZR

    Opinions can be fought but facts are sacred and the internet is full of facts which anyone can visit and verify.Writing blogs int going to change history.Recommend

  • black_kettle1

    Kullu. Nobody celebrates the bad dates in history. Do you celebrate the date when Babur defeated Rana Sanga and laid the foundation of 100’s of years of Muslim rule in India? Or the fall of Bijapur & Golkonda with the execution of Sambhaji (the eldest son of Shivaji Maharaj)? No. So you win some and lose some. India learnt the lessons of 1965 well and in 1971 hit where they knew Pakistan could not fight a long war without air and naval supply lines. Pakistan did the same in Kargil – laid out careful plans to cut Indian supply lines in IoK until India went crying to Uncle Bill Clinton. If US had not pressured Pakistan into pulling back, the map of India would look a bit different today. Read the timeline on BBC:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/387702.stmRecommend

  • Proud Pakistani

    Please get well soon from this sickness. Don’t delude innocent Pakistanis.Recommend

  • sridhar
  • Parvez

    That was written as a feel good piece ……. in ’65 the media was completely Government dominated, today its the Internet Age …… so ?Recommend

  • Arunanshu M

    This insane diatribe befits a Pakistani. Who else would say that Pakistan won the ’65 war when truth is available on any search engine worth its algorithm. The concocted lie seems so much appropriate when this Pakistani lawyer speaks.Recommend

  • cabalco

    Stand up comedy material.Recommend

  • leela4fun

    The real lesson to be learnt from 1965, or from any war for that matter, is that wars are not the solution to any problem.

    War in 1971 did solve the problem of West Pakistan raping and pillaging Bangladesh.Recommend

  • Tom

    Pakistani liers have no limit…………They invent history..Recommend

  • PragmaticThinker

    Everything written in this article can, word for word, be applied to Pakistan. Let’s get the record straight: India’s attack was not an unprovoked attack. As in war, It was a strategic response to Op Gibraltar and Op Grand Slam (go ahead, author, I will wait for you to do a simple Google search) – a plan ill-devised by Pakistan Military High Command and it’s equally misinformed civilian leadership to take back Kashmir. It is clear that the author is drumming up patriotic fervor and undertones given it is Defense Day. I agree with him that the valour of the fighting men of Pak Army and Airforce were the sole element that prevented an epic disaster at Lahore. We owe so much to those brave warriors, soldiers whose job was not to question but to obey, to protect the motherland from all those who transgress against her. Yes, there were grand strategies on both sides of the border, some ridiculous as the author points out, “drinks at Gymkhana”, but at the end of the day, Defense Day should be a reminder for both nations that we must both accept that our co-existence is the only way forward. It takes two hands to clap. Incase the author is still not satisfied with the results of the simple Google search and holds fast to an age old propaganda built upon on the backs of true Martyrs who gave their lives to protect the motherland from the mistakes of the King and all his men, here is a wonderful article from a person who fought in 1965: https://www.dawn.com/news/1204925/straight-shooting-on-the-1965-war

    Peace, my friends, is the only path forward but unconditional from both sides. Kashmir must be given sovereignty and a right to dictate its own destiny. Let us bury the hatchet that was plunged into our hearts and souls, turning neighbour against neighbour, at midnight, on August 14/15, 1947.Recommend

  • shrabani

    First tell who gave you that gold medal? Recommend

  • Muhammad Siddiqui

    I am not trying to take sides here, but the historical fact as observed by neutral observers is that Pakistan lost the war in 1965. Of course, Pakistan army which was also ruling the country at the time will say that Pakistan won the war, but most if not all outside observers of the events in 1965 will say that Pakistan didn’t achieve the objectives and India outsmarted Pakistan.Recommend

  • Lalit

    Hahahaha….author should go and Google terms like ops Gibraltar and Grand slam before he even starts talking about 1965 war…and lesson we indeed learned in 1965 so much so that by 1971 Pakistan had lost half her territory.Recommend

  • Rohan

    We did destroy the 2 nation theory in 1971 that’s for sureRecommend

  • wb

    Another JOKE, although tragically real is that MUSLIMS and especially Pakistanis still think that modern warfare is all bout camels, swords, spears, ramparts, looting and plundering!!!! Is it any wonder that the entire Muslim world is a massive massive failure?Recommend

  • Ramesh Kumar

    You want India to remember 1965, but forget to tell about 1971, and more recent Kargil. Selective memory loss.Recommend

  • Patwari

    Well, G Din,..er…see, hmm,…only a hindu would call the
    Bangladeshi affair a war. But clearly, even the village dweller
    can see the desperate Hindustani need to save face. The
    1971 “Hindu Desh War” does allow the hindus to do that.
    If you take 90,000 Pak soldiers, who were out of ammunition,
    out of fuel, out of air cover, because there was no aviation fuel.
    out of food, no resupplying and surround them with 1 million
    hindu soldiers plus 100,000 Mukhti Bahini stabbing the Paks
    in the back then yes, the hindus won. It was never a war to
    begin with. Hindus can tell their children about “winning” a war.
    Had it been fought on the Western Side, then there would be a
    Pak Governor sitting in Delhi. The new Pak Bharat border would
    have started in Maharashtra.
    After 1200 years of Muslim subjugation. The Bharati defeat at
    the Rann of Kutch Battle and the shameful Hindustani Rout in
    the 1965 war are testaments why Bharat will always be a dancing,
    singing Bollywood third rate movie.Recommend

  • Patwari

    Did you learn that at the Raj Gopalacharia University?Recommend

  • Patwari

    Really Banarsi? You can do that? Make sure you got your
    janeo thread and dhoti worn correctly. Always right shoulder
    for janeo thread.
    Oh! plus the big white swath of white paint on the forehead.
    Now that is one supersize bindi!
    Say, there is a train leaving every day for Manipur. Just tell
    them there you are a dark Bhahmini. No worries.Recommend

  • wb

    “Kashmir runs in our blood!”

    Then the only way you can get Kashmir is to bleed yourself and donate you blood to your government. Problem solved!!! Pakistani government gets Kashmir!!!Recommend

  • wb

    Patwari, it’s okay. We forgive you. It’s not your fault. Recommend

  • Kulbhushan Yadav

    You are wrong. Pakistanis celebrate the day when they barely saved themselves. I think you should read about Pakistan’s grand plan of operation Jibralter to seize Kashmir from India but then run pillar to post to save themselves and ultimately landed in Tashkent to ask Russians to use their influence over India to spare you. No wonder you were not happy with Russians over that Tashkent humiliation. As for Kargil, only Pakistani can claim it to be bravery to occupy empty posts but run with tail under the legs when other side started to bomb.By the way , was it not Nawaz who landed in Washington on 4th of July, uninvited, to plead for mercy and ask Indian to stop thrashing you??Recommend

  • Kulbhushan Yadav

    Cut from central Asia??? And you are joined with Central Asia?? Look at the map again, there is Afghanistan. Apparently it is India that has cut you from Central Asia with help from Afghanistan. They won’t let you pass unless you mend your ways. I think you should read history from some reliable sources and not from your own history books.Recommend

  • Kulbhushan Yadav

    What exactly do you have for Kashmiris?
    Can you provide them
    1. Better health care than India?? You guys are rushing to India for that.
    2. Better education? You are no where in top 500 universities while Indian engineering graduates are working all over the world and some of them even leading those multinationals.
    3. More employment opportunities? Pakistan is debt ridden country living on the aid and alms. You are not in position to get jobs for your own countrymen, how would you provide jobs to Kashmiris? The number of tourist that visit Kashmir in India in a month, is more than the tourists that visit Pakistan entire year.Recommend

  • Gratgy

    How did you cut us from Central Asia? By your logic we cut you from the rest of Asia and your East Pakistan in the same year. If you had us by our throats, why did your PM run to the US to beg Clinton for mercy.Recommend

  • rama

    “The anti-Pakistan rhetoric is far more popular in India than the anti-India rhetoric is in Pakistan”
    In Indian print and electronic media many days will never be mentioned . But on any given India occupies more than 10% of the news items with mostly -ve impression and rhetoric.

    Indians are least bothered about PakistanRecommend

  • Lalit

    He needs to study Geography as well.Recommend

  • Hahaha

    Nobody celebrates loses, but few lie about their victories like Pakistan. Pakistan starts a war and then claims it defended itself from invasion. How twisted can logic be? lol…. US pressured Pakistan to pull back, lol you were a nuclear power and still got pressured into pulling back, logic just got twisted more…By the way Babur was not Pakistani, he was an invader from Central Asia, and raped and looted people who now live in Pakistan, but due to the same twisted logic you now cherish the invader.Recommend

  • Lalit

    I agree with rest of your points but prey tell on what basis should Kashmir be given sovereignity ? On the same basis why not Baluchistan, Sindh , Gilgit and Baltistan and Khyber Pakhtunkhwah ?Remember Bangladesh wrested it in 1971.
    Kashmir including PoK is an indivisible part of Indian federation and will remain so.what you can’t win in battlefield can’t be won over a table.Recommend

  • Lalit

    Dear.. India has never initiated a war and has no incentive to do that as it’s a status quo country but has time and again repulsed Pakistani misadventures and in this process Pakistan lost half her territory and some wonderful people.yes territory wise we gained nothing in Ķargil as our forces were restrained from crossing LoC from the very first day.However our aim of flushing out Pakistani intruders by inflicting heavy casualty was succesful and India regained all her territory in the end.Along with it Indian stand on Kashmir issue was vindicated and Pakistan lost whatever sympathy they had till than even in Isalmic countries.
    The point to ponder is what has Pakistan gained from all her misadventure?Recommend

  • Tony Singh

    1971 war was the logical extension of 1965. Indians did in Bangladesh successfully in 1971 what Pakistan tried and failed to do in Kashmir in 1965 (Operation Gibralter)Recommend

  • Tony Singh
  • Tony Singh

    https://www.google.co.in/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjR0arjzpLWAhUHr48KHXAKBlMQFggzMAI&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.rand.org%2Fpubs%2Fmonograph_reports%2FMR1450.html&usg=AFQjCNGIXOvyjBoJqhmsTBI5f8IVxy1w9A
    Read this. You will know how Mushraff sent Nawaz Sheriff to meet Bill Clinton on 4th of July 1997 and begged him to ask India to allow Pakistani forces to retreat and not fire on them.Recommend

  • Gratgy

    Haha probably in your own parallel universe. In the real universe it was Nawaz Sharif who went running to countries from China to the US to beg India to stop its military offensive. In fact Pakistan ran back without even taking the dead bodies of its own soldiers which were left by the mountainside to rotRecommend

  • Gratgy

    Until they ban cousin marriages, inbreeding will keep taking its tollRecommend

  • Gratgy

    That is once you get past your habit of surrendering at the first sound of gunshotsRecommend

  • Gratgy

    How did you cut us from Central Asia? By your logic we cut you from the rest of Asia and your East Pakistan in the same year. If you had us by our throats, why did your PM run to the US to beg Clinton for mercy.

    The victor in a war is defined as one whose objectives were met. Pakistan’s objective was to take Kashmir, India’s objective was to drive back Pakistani soldiers disguised as Taliban. Guess who still has Kashmir

    Pakistan was a flourishing economy in 1965 with latest military equipment from the US. Now all Pakistan has now are cheap Chinese equipment that the Chinese themselves have rejected. Economically,Pakistan is a basket case and is globally seen as a failed state while India is one of the largest economies in the worldRecommend

  • Gratgy

    I really don’t get what you intend to convey by posting incoherent blabber. But at least we don’t indulge in incest and marry our own cousin sisters like you.Recommend

  • Pakistan’s father

    U can only make fool of ur people by distorting historyRecommend

  • Abdul moiz

    In the words of Beardfish .. “Me is my own worst enemy” ,

    Pakistan and India don’t need each other to be defeated, they have enough termites of their own .. they are worse off in most ways compared to the 60s

    Religious Fanaticism is on the Rise in Both Nations
    Both nations are hyper superstitious
    Both are exhibiting hyper nationalism
    Both Still don’t know why exactly they hate each other (but hate each other more than before)
    India excelled in Technology , while Pakistan is still Dud
    Infrastructure is ok in south India only, and nowhere (maybe some sq kms of lahore) in PakistanRecommend

  • Sudhanshu Swami

    What was Operation Gibraltar ?Recommend

  • Sudhanshu Swami

    Silence please, Lets listen what Mr Ashgar Khan is saying https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCI3PGzFRsQRecommend

  • Sudhanshu Swami

    India never wanted to beat you , nor will want. You came to Kashmir (operation Gibraltar) we said “This is not good, please go away”. You came to Kargil (vacant posts), we came back after lunch and said. “This is not good, please go away”. in 71 Pakistan’s Majority holder Sheikh Muzib asked us to defend and save him, we came and said “This is not good, please go away”.Recommend

  • Lalit

    If close to one hundred thousand of your Mujahids, who had earlier promised a fight to the last bullet and comically equated one Muslim soldier with 10 Indians(making it technically a surrender of 9 Lakh soldiers) can hide behind the decoy of isolation,cut off supply lines and depleted ammunition and lack of air support ,what makes you feel confident that such scenario will not be repeated again ?Wars are won by creating such situations for enemy.we were there to make life hell for the enemy ie you and not for exchanging bouquets. Who stopped you to continue fighting at the western front and wrest territory to exchange it with Bangladesh in 1971?you could have fought tooth and nail in western front where you were not facing those problems you mentioned in eastern Pakistan.You are also trying your best to do the same in Kashmir for last 3 decades but in vein.
    In the meantime India once again entered Siachin in 80s and still remains there while Pakistani forces had to beat a retreat in Kargil.Pakistan’s isolation today at international level is palpable and more prominent than 1971.
    Rest of your rhetoric doesn’t deserve any response.Recommend

  • Ahmar

    In 1971, Pakistan was at war with itself. It started as a civil war, where India provided support to the separatists. There was no route of support for western Pakistan and a massive population turned against the state itself. No country could have won.Recommend

  • Lalit

    You have correctly diagnosed their ailment.But sadly there is no cure for this disease.Recommend

  • Lalit

    Now that is hitting below the belt.Recommend

  • Ahmar

    The blog is about 1965 war and the response from Indian posters so far is …

    “Oh yeah? What about 1971?? Checkmate.”

    The war of 1971 was not the topic here. Even if you want to go there, it was fought on a completely different geographic front than present day Pakistan. Moreover it was an ongoing civil war between East and West Pakistan where India jumped in at the behest of separatists after an year of conflict. Pakistan had lost East Pakistan long before the war started. Indian involvement was merely the last straw.Recommend

  • Patwari

    No. You don’t agree with anything Pragmatic Thinker wrote.
    Nothing new there. It’s hindu double talk. Rather,…’bunya talk’.
    If what you wrote is turned around and applied to Hindu Desh, then…
    Arunachal Pradesh, Meghalaya, Manipur, Mizoram, Ladakh,
    Kerala, Assam, Sikkim should be given sovereignty.
    Currently, there are 64 insurgencies in Hindustan, repeat, 64.
    Eastern Bharat, the ‘chicken neck’ areas, Assam, Sikkim,
    Ladakh, are very very volatile for the Hindutva Hindu Hindustan.
    That’s triple H’s…HHH. Your nation’s religiously fanatic nationalism,
    has already done irreparable damage.Recommend

  • Patwari

    Some third rate, two bit ‘fired’ talking head on a TV show!?
    Just another dunce trying to make a buck, as an ‘expert’.
    They are everywhere. In every country. Peddling their mouths,
    to pay the next month’s rent.Recommend

  • Patwari

    Truth is biting you everywhere. You are more or
    less writhing in your twisted agony of 1200 years
    of Muslim rule. And a resounding defeat from a
    Muslim nation 1/3 your size. Pathetic.Recommend

  • Patwari

    Comment was for Banarsi Brahmini Mulla.
    Who just upgraded his caste to Brahmini.
    Just advising how to look like a real Brahmini.
    You follow? Savvy?Recommend

  • Kulbhushan Yadav

    I think you are one with 1 feet short salwar ( may be borrowed the old one from Ammi) , are not you? And may be had the sunna a bit too much which has left you with big trauma of big mouth and not too mention the damage to the brain.Recommend

  • Patwari

    Search engine? You still using search engines? That was something
    done years ago! No wonder you Hindustanis are still stuck back there.
    Say, your new assignment, Rann of Kutch Affair,…rather Battle. When
    the Paks would have taken Rajasthan…easily. Had they kept going.
    But it was unfeasible. Long stretched supply lines. And not enough
    manpower to hold the captured ground.
    Just a handful defeated an oversized Bharati force with lightening speed!Recommend

  • Kulbhushan Yadav

    Only a defeated Muslim would not call it a war where 90000 surrendered to just 3000 Indian soldiers. Your Punjabi army is good only to fight against rag tag Taliban and that too dropping bombs from 35000 feet and not fight in face to face gun battle . Recommend

  • Patwari

    Well, see, there are hardly any women left in Hindia. Either they
    are trying to run away or changing their religion. To anything.
    With female infanticide, sati, women set afire by in laws….see?
    Known as the Rape Capital of the world, Hindia has only
    700 women to every 1000 men. Now that is bad, bad juju.
    Pretty soon, each hindu woman will end up being married to
    4 or 5 hindu men. Nasty. there is no other solution. Or hindu
    men will marry hindu men. Nasty.Recommend

  • PragmaticThinker

    True. Your sentiments are valid. Although, I could ask this very question to you: on what basis Indian Punjab should remain part of India? (Khalistan movement) On what basis should Northeast provinces of India stay with the union when separatist movements have been active for decades? Actually, if I pull this thread even more, then the entire existence of both India and Pakistan comes into question, the Radcliffe commission, the independence movement. Why do any of the provinces in India have to stay in the Union much like your question about Pakistan? ALAS, if we were to pull this thread we require tons of chai and sweets, my friend, neither I believe supported by this forum =). For better or for worse, there is a history amongst our people, shared in blood and love, a design gifted to us by a dying empire. That is a history you and I must live with. It does not however mean that we are masters of the future to come. So, when you ask on what basis should Kashmir be given sovereignty, I say on the basis of it’s people, history, and the future to come. The people of Kashmir both sides, PoK and OK, have suffered enough on the controversial nature of its birth. Peace demands compromise but compromise does not have to be a bad word. We have fought wars, sent countless young souls to their end, don’t you think it is time we ask the people of Kashmir what they want. Should we not follow through with the UN mandated referendum. The shifting sentiment of Kashmiri people is for the sovereignty of Kashmir, both Indian and Pakistani Kashmir. Now, shall we continue to repeat the past, mistakes of our forefathers, or turn a new chapter of rational and pragmatic thinking? What is it that we do here, my friend? Shall we give peace a chance?Recommend

  • Patwari

    Now, now,…Banarsi Mulla, you at a loss of words?
    Say, after upgrading your caste to Brahmini slot, your
    shadow can now fall on any cow, man, woman, child,
    langur, priest, devdasi, cat, holy peepul tree. It’s allowed.
    It’s OK. Also pretend you are reciting incantations in Sanskrit.
    People won’t be chasing you like they did before.No worries.
    Wear the dhoti with the 7 folds in the front. Janeo thread and
    a nice big bindi. You will pass. Recommend

  • Fareed Khan Afridi

    Well said! Indians always look at the Bangladeshi war with a lopsided pathetic, feeble, jingoist view.
    One million Indians against 90,000 thousand Pakistani Army soldiers, now that is about par, evenly balanced. Would you not say!!
    Except the Pakistanis ran out of every thing that mobilizes an army,Recommend

  • Patwari

    Look who is talking. A hindu pretending to be a Pak.
    Don’t be ashamed of being a hindu.Recommend

  • Patwari

    See, if they get rid of those 24 Hindustani consulates also known as
    Bharati Cultural House for Goodwill, then everything will be fine.
    No more infiltrations into Balochistan, FATA. Use the bags of dollars to
    feed the Dalits, Untouchables. take care of Arunachal Pradesh, Mizoram,….
    The list is endless.Recommend

  • wb

    My dearest Patwari, why don’t they invite you on TV, I’m sure you’ll make a good expert. Recommend

  • wb

    These were your forefathers, my dearest!!! Recommend

  • wb

    Patwari, it’s okay. We get it and we forgive you. Recommend

  • Bhimpole of the Bailey

    There was no civil war. Mujibur Rahman won the elections.
    And should have been the next PM. But Bhutto, a Sindhi
    wadera, a feudal thug, who lost to Rahman refused to accept
    a Bengali as PM. Bhutto proceeded to cause problems.
    [58% of Pakistan’s population, all Bengalis, lived in East Pakistan]
    Neither did the provincial, communal, Punjabis and Pathans would
    accept a Bengali as PM. True Sons of the Soil caused the break up.
    Now, why would 58% would want to live under the thumb of
    barely 42%….?Recommend

  • Hahaha

    1200 years of muslim rule? and you talk like you invaded… lol… they invaded you .. Afghans and Persians invaded what is now Pakistan.

    You lost half your country, don’t control another half even now.Recommend

  • Gratgy

    It looks like inbreeding causes incoherence too.
    Gender Equality score- India= 0.683, Pakistan= 0.556, source: Global Gender Gap Report 2016 by World Economic forum.

    Haha it looks like Pakistan is even worse than India.

    Last Sati case happened more than 30 years back. Now lets see, women being set on fire seems to be quite common in Pakistan too, add to that the tradition of bachcha baazi and Vaani and honor killings. Recommend

  • Patwari

    Why open a second front in the West.? For what?
    Exchange territory for Bangladesh? Why would Paks
    want to swap land? Bangalis wanted freedom. OK.
    Fine. They got it. West Pakistanis knew it was a no win situation.
    from the very start. They made sure it was not a cakewalk.
    for Bengalis and hindustanis.Recommend

  • Memona

    that explains india losing war to china and surrendering in their own backyard unlike pakistan over 2,000 miles away in bangaldesh. Did china cut off supplies of indian army in 1962 like india did to pakistan in 1971?? then how india lost Sino-indo war? same would have happened to india in doklam too if india hadn’t learn from 1962 and withdrew.

    As for kashmir region, It is much more difficult for Indians to occupy this territory which poses more geographically & culturally in favor for Pakistan, just like eastern india is to china. i mean india has been trying for past 7 decades.Recommend

  • wb

    Memona, elementary arithmetic will tell you that after 1962 comes 1971. So, what happened in 1971? India entered a foreign territory called Bhutan, made china stop their construction work and made them compromise on our terms. And also in the same year, we made China virtually declare Pakistan a terror state!!!
    Recommend

  • Anupam Pandey

    feel like laughing at your thought process. Ordinary Indians have no time , yet they have to read such Pakistani stuff. You have been given territory, live peacefully there. You want Kashmir, then tomorrow you want Punjab. Better we take away whatever land we gave you in 1947. Disappear Pakistan. You are an unwanted child. All you do for India is create problem. Everywhere. What do you want from us? Leave us because Indians want to live peacefully. You lost something in 1971, this time you may lost your dignity..Recommend

  • Anupam Pandey

    Yet you failed. What fails is Pakistan! A land that will be known to the history full of failures.Recommend

  • kulbhushan Yadav

    Awww….as soon as India started to play the game, Pakistanis were playing all their lives, they started to cry foul. It is a start. We will make sure you Pakistanis are declared the curse on the world so that when we cleanse you, world actually thank us. Well Afghans are already doing it. US is pretty much on the board. Russian would not mind. China would hesitate a bit but I am sure they would be OK to play small cost for the greater good for humanity :).Recommend

  • kulbhushan Yadav

    IN 1965, a man jumped into a cage where a Lion was basking into sun. The man thought it could take on the lion. Of course the man was high on some “heavenly” stuff. Well as soon as Lions started to maul the man, the man realized he chewed more than he could bite and started to scream for help. The trainer of Lion came to rescue and the man was saved , although with much injuries. Till date, the man celebrates the day as “defense” day.Recommend

  • Hassan Mirza

    Drum beating of 1965 what about 1971 the only country who surrender over 70000 troops plus given East Pakistan our forces who have given Pakistan 4 Martial law Recommend

  • Memona

    In 1971 India back stabbed Pakistan, would you say the same for china in 1962 sino-indo war??
    India withdrew from doklam to attend BRICS summit in china to cry about Pakistan. China halted construction along side border due to bad weather as I read.Recommend

  • Patwari

    Dead wrong, Banarsi Brahmini, the 1962 Hindustani defeat at the
    hands of China was very shameful. China was considered a
    very backward country at that time. With their Cultural Revolution,
    ongoing and an aging duo, Mao Zedong and Chou en Lai in charge.
    Bhutan and China had signed an understanding on Doklam. Modi
    Sarkar just inserted himself to distract from his failing policies.
    The 1971 skirmish, that Hindu Desh glorifies into a full fledged war
    was nowhere near it. Just something for hindu school books and
    a fairy tale hindus tell their children.
    Rann of Kutch Affair in April/May of 1965, in Rajasthan, was a resounding
    defeat for the Bharati army. And a pre cursor for the Hindustani Rout
    in Sept. 1965. Would you like to know how many hindu army officers
    were found hiding in Amritsar? Plus list of how many court martialed?
    Make sure you have the janeo thread, the 7 fold dhoti and the bindi
    swath on the forehead,….or you “ain’t gonna pass for a Brahmini”Recommend

  • Patwari

    Comment was mutilated newspaper ET.
    Recommend

  • Rex Minor

    How come that you sir know so much of history while the educated author appears not to be aware of? It was a bad piece of history in Pakistan army who stand accused of committing a genocide against its own country men. I am not sure if lessons were learnt from the defeat consdering their crnage in waziri territory?

    Rex MinorRecommend

  • Rex Minor

    It would appear that Kashmir is fast becoming VERDUN known in french and Germn history, unless the political ledership resolve the dispute peacefully.

    Rex Minor .Recommend

  • Lalit

    First thing first…as far as 1962 is concerned Indians never claimed one Indian soldier is equavalent to 10 Chinese.Secondly India was not the invader.Thirdly there was no surrender like Dhaka.And finally we accept that we were defeated in that war.we learnt lessons from that defeat and started modernising our Military capabilities.Before that our leaders had a rose tinted world view of International relations.Those skirmishes in Himalayas brought them on the hard surface of real politik.3 years later Pakistan bore the brunt for her misadventure in Kashmir and later parted ways with her eastern wing.This speaks volumes of our recovery as 1965 action by Pakistan was mainly inspired by India’s poor performance in 1962.

    India confidently entered into Doklam region of Bhutan and withdrew only after making sure her demands are met.why do you think China allowed to include your non state actors name in BRICS declaration if India was a loser here ?
    According to you Kashmir is India’s eastern Pakistan for last 70 years. How close are you to wrest it ?Recommend

  • Lalit

    The main thrust of Pakistani military strategy in 1971 was to capture as much territory as possible in west so as to exchange it later on with that lost in eastern wing.it is well documented.But incidents like Longewala poured cold water over their plans.Not only did you lose your eastern wing but also vast swaths in west.
    Recommend

  • Lalit

    Please take your medication..Recommend

  • Ahmar

    I am aware of all that. Yes Mujib ur Rehman should have been elected PM. Politicians+Military establishment based in West Pakistan denied the majority rule which led to unrest in the East. The military ruler at the time, Yahya Khan tried to crush this with armed force which worsened the problem and turned it into a civil war. The Bengali freedom fighters or “Mukti Bahni” had been fighting military establishment for at least an year before India got involved.

    Point being, if the army is already fighting a large popular uprising, cut off from the rest of the country, surrounded on all sides, and then gets attacked, there is no way it can win. It is either surrender or die.Recommend

  • numbersnumbers

    HAHAHA!
    Still making up those “24 Hindustani Consulates”!!
    You appear to be unable to locate those “24 Hindustani Consulalates” on a map for us, possibly because they only exist in your mind!!!
    Another fantasy of denial!Recommend

  • wb

    Memona, in 1971, Pakistanis back stabbed Bengalis. Bhutto and Yahya back stabbed Mujib. Punjabi speakers back stabbed Bengali speakers. West Pakistan backstabbed East Pakistan.

    You need to read more than Pakistan studies.
    Recommend

  • wb

    Actually Patwari, we have 100 consulates in Afghanistan and 1000 within Pakistan. Recommend