Pakistan may be poor, but it has a rich culture – much richer than any country in the west

Published: February 28, 2017
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I would come back to my motherland and help make a difference because home is where the heart is; and my heart is always in Pakistan. PHOTO: AFP

As I grew up in the 90s, every couple of months I would see my mom and dad pack up their bags and go on official tours around the world; America, Europe, you name it.

My sister and I would eagerly await their return, not because we wanted to see our parents, but because we wanted to open up their suitcases full of goodies. They would be stuffed with clothes, toys, chocolates and things that we apparently couldn’t buy in Pakistan. We would wear these international clothes with pride and we felt “better” than everyone else, because we had more expensive things.

My whole life I was told,

Beta baray ho kay Amreeka jana hai”.

(You have to go America when you grow up).

Relatives would tell me,

Wahan toh chotay chotay bachey bhi angraizi boltay hain”.

(Even little children speak in English over there).

That would leave me in a state of awe. As time passed, I looked at my culture and the system and thought the “gora” does it so much better. Why are we so backward? I would question how we have not evolved with time and why still wear shalwar kameez? We still eat “disgusting” desi food. In my teens, every chance I got, I would go to Pizza Hut, McDonalds, KFC because this food was so much better than the desi alternatives. With my mind set only on one thing all times,

Dekho gora hum say kitna behtar hai”.

(Look, the foreigners are just so much better than us).

By the age of 19, I was thoroughly sick of my country. Then six-years-ago when it was time, I applied to different universities around the world in hopes of a “better” life. As fate had it, I got accepted to the University of Alberta in Edmonton, Canada. It was a city most of the people around me hadn’t even heard of, because all you hear about on TV and social media are Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver.

I still remember being awestruck by the clear blue smog free sky when I got off the bus outside my university, for the very first time. Everything was new, all that I had dreamt of was better than everything I had ever come across. The people were polite, who would hold the door for you and even say sorry for the times they accidentally did not do so. Drivers barely ever used their horns to honk, and there was virtually no smell of car exhausts. Everyone was treated equally, no matter their social status. It made me really happy that I was finally in a place that had so much positivity. In short, life was good.

However, as the years passed by, the magic I was once fascinated with began to fade. This is where the bubble started to burst for me.

But let’s rewind back to history. Our sense of inferiority began when the British invaded us. So I question, what is the best way to suppress a culture? It is to make the people believe that everything about another culture is better than what you have. You constantly believe that your culture is backward, your skin colour makes you inferior and everything that comes with being “white” skinned is superior. Our ancestors were made to believe that they looked better if they had a lighter skin tone, with western clothing, and that the bench mark of success was the western way of life. Even a thousand years of history had not produced  some of the biggest advancements of human existence; chess, mathematical theories and even shampoo, to name a few. Well unfortunately, this inferiority complex was stuck and has been passed on over to generations.

The emergence of skin whitening creams, the overwhelming cluster of people at fast food chains and adopting western clothing over our own shows how we still live in this inferiority complex. You know how they say,

Angraiz toh chalay gaye par tumhein peechay chor gaye”.

(The British went away but left you behind).

This phrase embodies perfectly the inferiority complex I am talking about.

So after a few years, I went back to visit my family in Pakistan. I was hanging out with some friends when someone asked me the following question,

“What is the difference you see in Pakistan and Canada? And are you happier there than you were in Pakistan?”

At that point, I truly didn’t understand the premise of the question and responded with,

“Yes, they are so much better than us and I am truly happier”.

However now I sit here, with the question still stuck in my head?

“Are they really better than us? Am I truly happier?”

Well here is my answer.

In Pakistan, we talk about being Muslim and how we are somehow better than the non-Muslims just on the basis of religion we were fateful enough to be born in. We are stuck in longer beards and shalwars above our ankles but it is the “gora” who truly embodies Islam. They unknowingly embody the true values of equality, justice and love for all. They are more organised and educated than us and that’s their power.

But really, that is all there is. They have zero culture, they are so stuck in the concept of individualism that they forget that a culture is what makes you powerful as a nation, the very same thing we run away from. I realise the culture we so often run away from is our strength and our happiness. You see, what we don’t realise is that we are sitting on a goldmine and we have so much potential as a nation, which is being wasted away only because we refuse to look past the glitz and glamour of the west. We continue to admire the western way of life and complain about how this way of life should also look the same for us.

Here is where I will burst this bubble.

Almost half the year everything is draped in snow, so life is virtually at a standstill. Sure, they’ve found a way around this but it’s still unbearable to go out in -25 degrees Celsius and people are mostly stuck indoors. The nights in Canada are long in the winter, sunrises and sunsets come and go without being noticed, which is why their winters are highly correlated to depression. Their food is bland and there is nothing you can identify as purely “Canadian”. They have Poutine, sure, a local dish that has fries, gravy and cheese, which really isn’t food if you ask me.

The average house is made of plywood, costing a fortune to live in. Your food choices are already made for you because their super markets are stocked with Genetically Modified Organisms (GMO) infused tasteless fruits and food. Even the clothing, we ogle over from across the ocean, is made in our countries, labelled and retailed on a much higher price.

There is no depth to life here.

Let’s compare this to Pakistan, where there are four seasons and everything is produced naturally. The food has flavour, the people are diverse, the languages are beautiful and rich and the land is fertile. There are rivers, beaches, mountains and deserts. There are plains and plateaus. The diversity in culture across the land is so much, yet we don’t value it. Our local people are warm and welcoming. The clothing is beautiful, especially the handmade ones and are of much higher quality.

The richness of our culture is unmatched. We are blessed with everything a nation can hope for. Unfortunately, because we view the west from our rose tinted glasses, and propaganda we see on western television makes us believe the west is a little piece on heaven on earth.

The point I am trying make is this; the life that most people dream of achieving by going abroad is basically a fassad (pun intended). Trust me, it only looks good on the surface. Don’t get me wrong, I am not ungrateful for what this country has given me because it has helped me grow immensely as a human being, as a person and as a professional. I owe a lot of my success to this amazing country but this is only because they have a better education system and equal opportunities for everyone.

Imagine for a second, if most of our population was educated and our people and politicians made the right choices, we would realise that there is no better country to live in than Pakistan. The love we share for our people and the unity we have as a nation is amazing. A gold mine of culture awaits to be used as a strength. Imagine if we stopped ogling over the west and looked inside, the things we could achieve are immeasurable. Trust me, this is not fantasy, because we are the people of the Indus Valley civilisation, the people of Mohenjo-Daro.

Our ancestors did figure out these secrets and used them as our strengths and ruled the world for centuries. I dream that we will also realise that the “gora” is not better than us. We should believe that we have it in us to be the best in the world. We just need to realise that education is important, that everyone is made equal and should be treated as such.

As Allama Iqbal said,

Nahin Hai Na-Umeed Iqbal Apni Kisht-e-Weeran Se
Zara Nam Ho To Ye Mitti Bohat Zarkhaiz Hai Saqi”.

But of his barren acres Iqbal will not despair:
A little rain and harvests shall wave at last, oh Saqi!

One day I hope that we will rise above it all. We will be the nation Jinnah dreamt of. We will unlock the secrets of success and the potential Jinnah and Iqbal saw in us. One day, I hope when I accomplish my goals in education, I come back to my motherland and help make a difference because home is where the heart is; and my heart is always in Pakistan. Bleed green till the day I die.

Pakistan Zindabad!

Ahmed Hayat

Ahmed Hayat

The author studies Developmental Psychology and works for the University of Alberta. He is an advocate of equality and love. Although far from home, his love for his country is undying. He tweets @ah_med_hayat (twitter.com/ah_med_hayat)

The views expressed by the writer and the reader comments do not necessarily reflect the views and policies of The Express Tribune.

  • Rahul

    The author has failed to understand that life is about making choices. You can have your life in Lahore with all its pluses and minuses or you can have life in Alberta with all its pluses and minuses. Living in Alberta you are pining for all that is good in Lahore. The guy living in Lahore may be thinking how to get out. When I go back to India, I make sure I notice what is good about their lives as well as bad and when I come to the US, I make sure to appreciate the benefits as well as drawbacks.Recommend

  • ajay gupta

    yeah, in pakistan u’ll bleed anyway, green or normal red.Recommend

  • Manju

    Technically Pakistan has no culture it’s rather under the Shadow of Indian culture.How do you think “Pakistani” culture that exists since 70 years(with a lot of ups and downs) grow richer than than cultures that are hundreds if not thousands of years old.Unlike India Pakistan fails to recognize it’s own diversity where people are forced to learn Urdu(Which is not even a native of Pakistan).With Sindhi,Punjabi,Pashto,Balouchi native languages and cultures ignored.The worlds oldest civilization ruins exist in Pakistan yet they never cashed it on even domestic tourism,calling it a “Anti Islamic” dark ages ruins and left to dust.Pakistan needs to learn that they share the same Indian culture and the longer they thrive to create a separate one more in secured they will get. Recommend

  • Critical

    So which culture you want to embrace? The one which was there before Bin Qasim arrived or the fake Arab culture you propagating just to show that you are different from Indians?
    Many Islamic countries like Egypt,Indonesia have no problems in acknowledging their pre-islamic past and they are proud of it… But only Pakistan and Saudi Arabia thinks that they should never acknowledge it..
    The name ‘Pakistan’ itself was coined in the 1920s and there was no trace of that before while the name India finds it back in 3rd century..So Pakistani culture is just another subset of indian culture,no matter what your books try to teach
    Are you ready to acknowledge your real past or keep finding your nonexistent Arab roots?Recommend

  • gypsy soul

    Indeed , does bleed green…mighty force in the making , as if living the poets dream itself ..Recommend

  • Najeeb A Khan

    Every religion teaches honesty,hard work ,and truthfulness,and the goras have learnt these values due to certain socio -cultural historical happenings.Recommend

  • Ramesh Kumar

    Mr.Ahmed would live permanently in USA, with undying love for Pakistan, notwithstanding. “I would lead luxurious life here, you feel proud of your culture.”
    Well done, Mr Ahmed.Recommend

  • auginpk

    Reclaiming its culture is excellent.Recommend

  • KlingOn2K

    Actually it is quite the opposite. Pakistan is perhaps the only nation on earth which denies and obfuscates it’s 5000 year old roots. Pakistanis try to identify themselves with Arab and Turkic Muslims which they were never really a part of.Recommend

  • Free mind

    It is their culture which let’s people of all beliefs live without persecution in their country, can you live in Pakistan saying you Pakistanis don’t have culture? Your love for Pakistani culture is OK, but why hated against place you lived so long? And against country which accommodated you?Recommend

  • Rohan

    It’s richest in Jehad cultureRecommend

  • Sharath Chandra

    Yes , this culture burns Christians alive, Promotes terrorists.Recommend

  • ingeborg Malik

    yes a very very “Rich” Culuture…Gun Totting,Jihadi Mentality,Jew is my Enemy,Hindu is my Enemy,Christ is my Enemy,this sort of culture does not exist in the West or anywhere else apart from Muslim World and in particular Pakistan,and one can as a Pakistani boast of it as they are in this field “Second to none”,Jai HoRecommend

  • KlingOn2K

    Pakistan has been around for 70 years. What is Pakistan’s culture grounded upon? Is it Arabic, Turkic or Indian? What its citizens are taught in schools is vastly different from reality.Recommend

  • Shabana Nisar

    So, the tribune blog has no editors? How come such things get published?Recommend

  • http://gravatar.com/skchadha SKChadha

    “Pakistan may be poor, but it has a rich culture”

    Pakistan and Pakistani in describing CULTURE are somewhere lost the entire meaning of Culture? It is true that ruins Moin-Jo-Daro in Pakistan are reflection of ancient civilization and town planning. However, the cultures, the heritage, the rituals which are developed around this river basin over a time are lost in past 70 years. The Culture of a particular land depends on the requirements of climate, environment, weather, food, flora & funa of the area and in happiness and enjoyment of the people of a particular land. There is nothing in the Article to describe the CULTURE of this beautiful land.

    Any religion has spiritual and ritual parts. Instead of focusing on spiritual part of the religion, Pakistan has focused more on ritual part of it? The ritual part of Indus Valley is definitely different than Arab rituals. The main problems of today are because of imposition of Arab rituals and aligning them to this land. This land has always taught us to live in peace and harmony.

    It is true that writer while talking about culture have named part of Indus Valley Civilization i.e. Moin-jo-daro. However, Pakistan’s culture extend beyond it and upto Harrapa, Kot Diji, Gandhara civilization and the World Heritage Site of Taxila, Nankana Sahib, Takht-i-Bahi (in KP), enumerable sufi shrines, beautiful Mosques, Tombs build later by Muslim rulers, its festivals, folk dances like Luddi, Attan, Chand Raat, Nawruz etc. Pakistan’s culture neither reflected in Urdu nor in Urdu literature? Even if you search for culture please refer to Persian touch by Ghalib, Firdaus, Habba Khatun, Nund Rishi, Rasul Mir, Dara Sikho, Faiz etc. and not just Allama Iqbal, Ahmad Faraz, Nadeem Qasimi etc. More so, if we talk of languages, friends, what’s wrong in rich heritage of Sindhi, Koshur, Balochi, Saraiki, Brahui, Pashto, Hazaragi etc. in taking pride? After all they only represent the cultural heritage of Pakistan …??Recommend

  • Zuhayr Jamal

    If only I could be my liberal, progressive self without getting lynched.Recommend

  • xishan for 1

    Haters and jealous people are quite visible in comments.
    Blaming Islam for the terrorism, and actually looting the assets of islamic countries.Recommend

  • http://peddarowdy.wordpress.com/ Anoop

    You don’t speak the language of the land – Punjabi, but speak Urdu, an alien language enforced upon you.

    You can’t write in Gurmukhi script, the script born in Punjab. Gurmukhi script has died in Pakistan. You know English and Arabic script, both alien to the land.

    You cannot celebrate festivals of the land, like Basant, you will likely be jailed. You celebrate festivals of Arabs, who were really invaders to your land(You argue against the British and feeling inferior to them, isn’t this the same thing?).

    Women in Pakistan have forgotten to wear the Saree, the traditional outfit of the land, once. or are forgetting to. They wear more Burqa and Hjab, both alien, than Saree.

    Yoga was born in Pakistan. Yet, since its Hindu influence, hardly anyone practices it in Pakistan.

    Language, script, festivals, religion, costume – all alien. But, apparently you are proud of this “Pakistani culture”. Only in Pakistan.Recommend

  • jay

    Pakistan has a culture ? wow that some news !Recommend

  • Ahmed Hayat

    A very small subset of people that uneducated . Hence my point about education. Recommend

  • Rex Minor

    ‘The author writes about the West but lives in the lumber jack country of immigrants called Canada, a much larger size country than its neighbour USA. He has expressed his views about Canada and compared it with the country he was born in but failed to provide him with education like his Allama Iqbal who did travel West to learn. to learn about the definition of * Culture* ? It is not only the language but the human values and the way of life which the scriptures provide. One can only hope that he will return to his land one day which needs people like him

    Rex MinorRecommend

  • Rex Minor

    Many Islamic countries like Egypt,Indonesia have no problems in
    acknowledging their pre-islamic past and they are proud of it… But
    only Pakistan and Saudi Arabia thinks that they should never acknowledge
    it..

    Not that Pakistan and Saudi Arabia are any better, both Egypt and Indonesia are not Islamic countries per se but have muslim majority population and ruled by despots who have a very clouded view of human rights and human dignity. They have lived under the curse of heavens too long and are destined for destruction as is forecast in the scriptures.

    Rex MinorRecommend

  • Stopit

    I am sick and tired of people who go overseas, live in a ghetto with other desi people, never get to mingle with Anglo people because they smell like oil and pickle and then few years later become expert at “white culture” and criticise it but never leave. This article is a waste of space.Recommend

  • Gayle

    Do not listen to these inferiority complexed indian trolls who were ruled by muslims for 800 years and british for 200 years. Bollywood is even being conquered by pakistani girls @ Raees. and they have no clue what to do.Recommend

  • PoorSaint

    Most of the comments made below are not entirely relevant. Author has never compared Pakistani,Indian and Arab cultures and hasn’t brought religion into contention.In fact, he seems rightly proud of his Indus valley civilisation. People who have invaded Indian subcontinent have brought their own cultural values and religions with them which have become part of our cultures.Bin Qasim invaded India and brought Islam, but what about Aryans who invaded sub-continent and brought Hinduism here.The original inhabitants of Indus valley were Dravidians but when Aryans invaded, they introduced Hinduism which became part of current “indian culture”.So lets not mix up religion with cultures, although religion does effect cultural values and they are modified with time.Pakistan shares the same greater sub-continental culture/Indus valley civilisation and we are proud of it.You can see that in our music,languages, food and festivals.You can’t label the whole nation for bad deeds of a minority of people.These religiously intolerant people are everywhere.Just ask fellow Indians who visited Pakistan in 2004 India-Pak cricket series how warmly they were treated despite all the animosity between the two countries,and same goes for Chennai crowd when they cheered Pakistani team on their win over India in 1999.Lets not preach hatred, this will only widen the gulf.If only we can respect each other just like Indians & Pakistanis do in the West.Peace!!!Recommend

  • MrRollsRoyce

    Wow – this easily ranks as one of the worst blogs I have read here on ET. There is just so much wrong throughout that it would take a whole blog in its own right to refute the poorly made points by the author. To pick a few of them:

    “I would go to Pizza Hut, McDonalds, KFC because this food was so much better than the desi alternatives”
    Fast food is not considered good food in the west, and in fact each country has its own unique food styles and dishes. It is a matter of taste, Pakistani food is different from say Argentinian food or French cuisine. If you are trying to say that Pakistani food is superior to Western food, you’ve failed at making a valid argument.

    “It made me really happy that I was finally in a place that had so much positivity. In short, life was good. However, as the years passed by, the magic I was once fascinated with began to fade. This is where the bubble started to burst for me.”

    What did the Canadians do to you that made the magic fade? The equality, clear skies and clean everything, politeness and openness were still all there. So you just started feeling homesick?

    “This phrase embodies perfectly the inferiority complex I am talking about.”
    What you describe in the preceding paragraph, the inferiority complex, is a problem with Pakistanis, not Canadians. We are racists ourselves, who look up to fair-skinned caucasians and look down on dark skinned Africans. THIS is some of what constitutes our culture. So what else about it makes you think Pakistani culture is so superior to Western culture?

    “But really, that is all there is. They have zero culture, they are so stuck in the concept of individualism that they forget that a culture is what makes you powerful as a nation, the very same thing we run away from.”
    That is a very big claim to make, that a nation has zero culture. Then you go on to say that it is cold, often dark, and people are stuck inside. So what? Are there not culutural events? Do people not socialize? Or is it you (like so many Pakistani expats) who choose to stay away from meeting non-Pakistanis, and don’t go camping or fishing or school events or sledding or skiing etc?

    “The richness of our culture is unmatched. We are blessed with everything a nation can hope for”
    Yes – you are right – we do have a rich culture. That is simply an embodiment of the diversity of people in Pakistan. However richness of culture does not always equate to goodness of culture. Our culture includes MANY things that common sense rebels against. Terrible ones such as children’s rights, child marriage, women’s rights, and even starkly evil ones wherein freedom of thought and speech are a mortal sin. Western cultures don’t have such bad aspects, and THAT is why SO MANY OF US WHO CAN, DO LEAVE PAKISTAN. Why else are you living in Canada? Why did you go there to study? Why aren’t people from all over the world coming to a place with as rich a culture as ours to learn? Oh wait – the only global education we’ve been imparting is on how to be a terrorist.

    “I owe a lot of my success to this amazing country but this is only because they have a better education system and equal opportunities for everyone.”
    So if equality of all humans and a priority for education for all not important indicators of a good culture, what are?

    “I dream that we will also realise that the “gora” is not better than us. We should believe that we have it in us to be the best in the world.”

    It seems to me that you believe we are superior to the gora, or at least that is the impression I get from your blog. You betray the same sense of national superiority as displayed often by Americans, especially these days. In contrast I am much more a fan of the Germany mode of thinking (which itself came about as a reaction to German atrocities in WW2), where to feel a sense of superiority simply on the basis of the luck of your birthplace is considered very wrong. If you truly are a believer in equality, then you would not try to compete on “richness of culture”, but on actual human righs and economic goals, all tangible, measurable, and in dire need of improvement in Pakistan.

    As a whole also I find your blog confusingly written, or at least titled. Your blog deals exclusively with life in Canada, so how can you title it “any country in the west”? Have you lived a significant length of time in any of the 30 or 40 other countries that make up what we call “the west”? Do you not think that countries with centuries old traditions and languages, from large ones as Spain and Italy and France and Germany, to small ones such as Austria or Luxemborg, or new ones such as Australia, all have their own richness of culture? Or do you honestly think that just because we have 4 discernable seasons in Pakistan, varying terrain, and local cultures, we are the most unique in the world?

    Like you I am an expat, and like you I miss my homeland and wish I could live there. However the very fact that should I speak out against traditions there that I find abhorrent would get me branded, at best, a “brown sahib”, a western secular liberal, and at worst a non muslim worty of being lynch mobber, I sadly have to stay away from Pakistan. At least I am in no illusions of false comparisons of my adopted homeland and my previous one. Both have their good and bad points and unique cultures. There are things here I don’t like, but at least I don’t feel imprisoned in a place where anyone who is not a Muslim man is a second class citizen.Recommend

  • MrRollsRoyce

    Not many people are burning Christians alive, however talk to many educated people and you will find them supporting terrorism in one form or another. Perhaps you may recall that until the APS Peshawar attack most of Pakistan, including a proportionally large number of educated middle class people, were not in favor of a full war with the terrorists. Imran Khan was one of the chief leaders of this thinking. It was only a horrific attack that finally forced them to reconsider. Even so, before the terrorists were said to be “misunderstood patriots”, then the very same terrorists became “foreign agents”.

    Perhaps what we can say is that in Pakistan, even the educated are brainwashed. The only cure is an education in logic and critical thinking, which is impossible as these are anathema to a country founded on, and nourished by, dogma.Recommend

  • vinsin

    People of Indus Valley or of Bin Qasim? Why you people failed to make even religion of your own and had to import from Saudi Arabia?Recommend

  • http://peddarowdy.wordpress.com/ Anoop

    All the Pakistanis I have met outside of India have a Pakistani passport, which means they have signed the anti-Ahmadi pledge. They have condoned or actively support anti-Ahmadi feelings.

    Education or the lack of it, has nothing to do with Islamic Radicalism.

    Here, is a more scientific PEW survey. 1 in 4 Pakistanis support one of the other Terror group. You can’t hide behind cliches like “only a very small subset of people” support islamism.

    http://assets.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2010/07/pakistan-00-02.pngRecommend

  • pure ind

    u can count of only 800yrs, but there existed a civilization since 5000 yrs that ur ancestors practised.Recommend

  • Miyagi Jr.

    I had to upvote your comment with a heavy heart. Current Pakistani culture can be summarized in one sentence
    “He that apes others will never be himself”Recommend

  • Ali S

    That’s right, our beautiful culture of corruption, bigotry, honor killings, women-ogling and widespread cheating is much better than the West’s ‘bland food, dreary weather and well-mannered but emotionally cold people’. No thank you, I’d rather have the latter any day.

    This kind of tripe can only come from an upper middle-class urbanite Pakistani kid (or possibly beyond that, since he mentioned globe-trotting on his parent’s ‘official trips’ when young) who never knew what it’s like to be a minority or common man in Pakistan.Recommend

  • Arsha

    A rather immature and naive article. How do you define culture? You talk about weather and natural resources and food… Alberta or even Canada is not whole of West. Compare abundance of forests and natural resources in USA, compare food in Italy or France, compare willingness to respect others and stand up for rights of others. What about more honesty, women’s freedom, tolerance,etc etc. What do you mean by culture? You talk about more education and inclination to make better choices…Is that also not a consequence of culture? Give respect where respect is due.Recommend

  • Naila Safder

    I as a British Pakistani would definitely agree with this. Not a single day of mine goes by without thinking about life back home. Sure, there are multiple disadvantages of living in Pakistan, but there are several people for whom the pros weigh heavier than the cons. Rich, caring, collectivist culture being one of the most prominent features.Recommend

  • liberal-lubna-fromLahore

    yawn who cares about culture these days
    I means whos gonna visit lahore fort in scrotching heat in 45 degree celcius?

    I’d rather adapt western culture and watch netflix instead in my centrally air conditioned roomRecommend

  • Keyboard Soldier

    Excellent summation.Recommend

  • Bozair Iftikhar

    you’re dont know the difference between culture and geography.Recommend

  • Bozair Iftikhar

    Well saidRecommend

  • Amir

    Yes this is a lame article and comparison is not justifiable. Where I do agree where people who could afford it, they sent their kids abroad for better education, to escape the issues faced here..crime, political turmoil, violence, law and order, terrorism, religious intolerance, drugs, etc

    Every country has a rich culture and tradition, went to upheaval, learned from it, and respect each other. Here it is the opposite. Such comparison has been going on for ages by people living in western countries, and comparing how they miss Pakistan and it’s rich culture. Than come back please.

    In the late 80s, I remember when I was studying in Texas, USA, the Pakistani Association were hosting the independence day celebration, and the there was a top 10 list why Pakistan was better than US. If I recall number 3 was Religious tolerance in Pakistan. And number 1, Pakistan does not have aids. We live in our own Utopia world.Recommend

  • Sharath Chandra

    “the people are diverse,” – The nation was founded devoid of diversity. Recommend

  • MrRollsRoyce

    Sorry Naila, I have to disagree with you there. A culture in which
    you so often hear about people killed simply because they married of
    their own choice into an outsider clan is hardly collectivist. Its even
    worse when you look at at the discrimination against minorities, and
    read about the horrendous attacks on Christians, Ahmedis, etc. Lastly,
    as a woman you may recognize and have experienced that in the UK you have many more rights and can go about your life without fear, whereas in Pakistan that is simply not the case, where sexual harassment is the norm and nearly every male in the markets is prone to staring lewdly at any and all women their gaze falls on.

    Collectivist, our culture is not.Recommend

  • CULTURELESS COLONIALIST

    You’re just homesick for the bombings and bloodshed.Recommend

  • Muzaffar

    Just a small correction to your translation of Allama Iqbal’s couplet:
    “A little rain and harvests will wave at last, pourer of my drink.” ( Saqi…..bartender.)
    Recommend

  • FactCheck

    I don’t know what you were fed during your education.

    Pakistan has no culture. Th remnants culture you see scattered around Pakistan is the Hindu culture destroyed by the marauding muslim invaders.
    Recommend

  • KDP

    Please define the term “Culture” so that we can compare Pakistan’s culture and that of western countries. Countries with superior culture have rich literature, Philosophy, Institutes, Museums, Tolerance of other religion and beliefs, Less Corrupt and honest people (Relatively speaking compared to Superior Culture people of South Asia!!!) ,Recommend

  • KDP

    Sharath:
    Let me remind you that few years ago Hindus in Orissa Burnt Australian Missionary alive. During Gujarat communal riots Hindus burnt Muslims alive in Gulberg Society in Amdavad and a bakery in Baroda. (Note: I am a Hindu)Recommend

  • Critical

    Aryan invasion theory has been disproved… The drying up of Saraswati river forced the population to move towards the gangetic plains… Archaeological evidence shows Indus valley civilization worshipping a god while is so similar to the ShivLing…
    Hinduism is a mere coinage of the various traditions followed in ancient Indians by the Persians….

    Religion and culture are different but your countrymen are not ready to understand they have a vibrant culture which is so different from the Arabic one and they shouldnt be afraid to acknowledge it…

    its not just in pakistan, even in India,I’m seeing many muslims trying to emulate like an Arab all due to the petrodollars fuelling the mosques….Recommend

  • Farha

    Urdu is actually a mixture of Sanskrit and Persian, both languages are quite ancient. If the language of Ghalib (who wrote in both Farsi and Urdu) is foreign to you, then your culture truly is different from ours (as well as Indian Muslims too)…

    As for Punjabi, Shahmukhi is as valid a script as Gurmukhi which is still alive. Basant is still celebrated and only kite-flying in congested areas is banned due to the threat from heavy dorr.

    Culture evolves over time and Pakistan has many outside influences, some of which predate Islam such as the Aryans and the Kushans, etc. Should the Aryan be considered alien too as Dravidian nationalists claim.

    Even Hinduism was once an Aryan religion which was “enforced” upon the native Dravidians.

    Islam may have been founded in Arabia but it is as much a Persian, Turkish and Indian religion with its distinctions nowdays, since only 20% of Muslims are Arabs. Most Islamic conquerors of India were non-Arab too.Recommend

  • Hoshiar Singh Gill

    Each country of the World has a unique culture. You just need a open heart !Recommend

  • Ahmed Hayat

    WOW. DID you even read it? because its an admittance of me saying the way I used to think was wrong.Recommend

  • Farha

    The poll you cite is quite old, more than 7 years ago when terrorism was less of a problem. Newer research states around 9% support (even for Afghan Taliban), which is admittedly still high, but then again lets not exaggerate as you do.

    http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/03/30/prior-to-lahore-bombing-pakistanis-were-critical-of-taliban-and-other-extremist-groups/Recommend

  • Ahmed Hayat

    Yaar baat suno meri. First of all. Change your name from Mr.Rolls Royce to your real name and have a conversation with. I am more than willing to have a conversation with but I have a few rules:

    1.Read the article and understand what I ACTUALLY wrote and don’t make assumptions.

    2. Stop hiding behind that smoke screen of a fake name, lets converse and argue like adults.

    3. I am open to changing my points of view but yeh jo attack mode hai na isn’t really working.Recommend

  • Patwari

    The hindus, with 5,000 years of baggage and a distorted
    inferiority complex are here in full force.
    This is what living under one conqueror to another does to
    a nation destined for servitude. The last masters were the
    British Raj. The new ones are the Americans.Recommend

  • Patwari

    But you never left Hindu Desh! So how can you have met
    Pakistanis outside, and they even let you look at their
    passports?
    We all know you work in Poona for supposedly an IT. [ More
    likely a Chai Dhaba. ]
    Hindustan is the same place where they kill you
    you from the nearest holy tree for eating beef. Where
    they have the ‘refrigerator police’ going around checking
    for meat. Also a ‘Ghar Wapsi’ campaign, forced conversion
    to hinduism. And Sati,…burning widows,…plus a Caste System.Recommend

  • Sane

    Yes, in India none of the minority is safe. Mass killing of Muslims and other minority has been accepted as norm in India. Raping women specially foreigner is a prevailing culture. India is absolutely not safe for minorities and women.

    Sacher commission report is eye opening for people who think India is a secular country. Rather India is the worst country for all non Hindus. Read the links and stop misguiding people about Pakistan.

    http://www.prsindia.org/administrator/uploads/general/1242304423~~Summary%20of%20Sachar%20Committee%20Report.pdf

    http://indianexpress.com/article/india/india-others/8-yrs-after-sachar-muslims-still-out-of-govt-jobs-and-schools-panel/Recommend

  • Sane

    Jehad culture as you propagate is basically terrorist activities planned, supported, funded and executed by Indian govt. We are flushing Hindu sponsored terrorists, many are killed and leftover shall be killed soon. You no more can make fool the world.Recommend

  • Ahmed Hayat

    So a few days ago I wrote an article for the Express Tribune. I received a lot of feed back, interesting and at times harsh but valuable all the same. Some of the feed-back opened my prospective a little more and I would really like to share it.

    I believe that I was a little too harsh towards the Canadians.

    “Although I agree that the western world does not have a “culture” of their own and that is why they obsess over other cultures such as ours, however, the beauty of their culture is that it brings together people of all cultures and makes them one and that my friend is purely “Canadian.” – Fateh U Ahmad

    I think there is so much we can learn from our peers (as nations) around the world. Yes, there are ways of looking at the life in Canada (the West) but I think the most important thing about life here is respect, equality and right to a life in pursuit of happiness. Where women have equal opportunities as men. Where all religions are equal. Where all ethnicities, sexualities, genders are one under the eye of the law. Where there is honesty. Imagine if our parents let our children become Artists, Psychologists, Philosophers while giving the arts the respect they deserve, because historically there advancement of civilization has been correlated to the advancement in arts. My point is this;

    Yes, admittedly not all things are perfect in Pakistan or all bad in Canada the way this article may make you feel but there is room for improvement. Yes we should recognize our problems, own up to them and find a way to fix them. We Pakistani’s seem to live in the world of “if’s” If we were educated If our politicians made the right choices If this, if that. And this is what sets the gora’s apart from us. I think we need to stop looking at other people to get their hands dirty for us; we need to jump right into the mud”

    BECAUSE, It’s so important to have this moment of awakening when we realize that we are under an inferiority complex wee recognize our self. We can begin to “heal” after this moment and build all those things we ‘admire’ in about the west”

    I believe. I want you to believe. That there will come a day when Pakistan will be the country we dream of it to be. I believe that I will witness, I will witness that day, And so will you!.. When bread will become cheap And expensive will become life, When colourful flags will Become entangled in one banner. And directions leading here and there Will meet at one destination. When children will reign the country And in schools will the politicians be sitting. Those who have gone afar, with forgetfulness Will return to the nation one afternoon That day will come when this is how Pakistan will be!

    Bleed Green Till the Day I die. Pakistan Zindabad!Recommend

  • MrRollsRoyce

    Well first of all I am not your “yaar”.

    Second of all, I would LOVE to be able to converse in public using my real identity, but you know well enough the culture in Pakistan which kills those who hold dissenting viewpoints. I can assure you that I hate the enforced anonymity and that I have to LIE to everyone I meet in Pakistan, because the culture – that you are so fond of – includes the mindset that being offended is a valid reason to kill someone. So, as much as I would like to play by your rules, the rules of Pakistani and Muslim society prevent me from doing that.

    I wrote out a reply nearly as long as your blog, and merely answered your own statements. If you think I am making assumptions, please list those out.

    And sorry if you feel attacked, but again – I have fully read your blog. If you have a problem with my reply then please read through the blog yourself and see how my critiques follow naturally. This is all of course in a vacuum of internet discourse, I don’t know you personally and whatever beliefs and background there is to what you write. My critique however is valid when considering what you have written.

    Lastly, if you want to write such blogs with massively jingoistic themes as “Pakistans culture is much richer than any country in the west” then you should have a thick enough skin to absorb the resulting feedback.Recommend

  • Rohan

    You caught one guy who you kidnapped from Afghanistan,he’s not even a terrorist and was never in Pakistan also,as against people from your country who are caught everyday and killed in Kashmir.And they are committing Islamic jihadRecommend

  • Najeeb A Khan

    Culture is a very broad term .Asians are more social and group oriented and they live a warm life sharing happiness and grief.Westerns are individualistic.God has created variety of cultures and ways of life.WE should not judge others from our lenses.Every one likes his own culture.Our food is spicy. Westerns dont like spicy food.we cant say our culture is superior.Recommend

  • http://peddarowdy.wordpress.com/ Anoop

    Can you give me a number of people killed in Sati in the last 20 years and this refrigerator police running around, from credible sources?Recommend

  • http://peddarowdy.wordpress.com/ Anoop

    I looked at your link. 14% of Pakistanis favoring LeT. 49% don’t care.

    14% of 200 million of Pakistan is 38 million. This is NOT a small subset of people. NOT! This is greater than the population of Karachi, Pakistan’s biggest city and one of the biggest in the world. I think 38 million is bigger than the combined population of Karachi and Lahore, I could be wrong.

    1 in 7 in Pakistan is a Terror sympathizer, says your own link.

    Also, 100% of Pakistanis who have a passport have signed the anti-Ahmadi pledge. I’m sure you have too. That means you have enabled the Islamists, yourself. Kinda funny when Pakistanis defend their nation, after discriminating against a minority group in this way.

    We all have seen the Terror groups sharing resources. I’m estimating, 1 in 2 Pakistani supports one or the other Terror group, still.Recommend

  • http://peddarowdy.wordpress.com/ Anoop

    3 Million Muslims killed in East Pakistan, 70,000 dead in Terror attacks in last 10 years. This is Pakistan.

    India is 8 times larger. India is still safer for Muslims than Pakistan. I can’t think of a single event where the casualty numbers were in 5 digits since partition.

    Rapes per capita is higher in Pakistan, genius.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_statistics#Rape_statistics_by_country

    India 0.4 Rapes per 100,000
    Pakistan 28.8 Rapes per 100,000

    India has better laws and procedures in place. Pakistan has none. In Pakistan, marital rape is not considered crime and for Rape victims need 4 male victims to get conviction, which reduces crime reporting! No wonder the numbers are low for Pakistan. In spite of this, 28.8 women get raped in Pakistan per 100,000 people. But, you only care about India, don’t you. How sweet.

    Expect me to use this link in our future conversations about this topic. Eh?Recommend

  • http://peddarowdy.wordpress.com/ Anoop

    You practice the Religion of invaders(Muslims), celebrate their culture as yours, use their script to write and read(Arabic) and you say Indians have baggage.

    You do realize, your ancestors were killed/looted by raiders from Afghanistan. Punjab and Sindh have been targeted several times!

    At least we practice our own Religion, culture, festivals and read/write in our own language. Not of invaders.Recommend

  • Farha

    To add Bulleh Shahs poetry is in ShahmukhiRecommend

  • Farha

    “1 in 2 Pakistani supports one or the other Terror group, still.”

    First you say 1 in 4. Then 1 in 7 . Then 1 in 2. Talk about consistency.

    You really are a master of misreading statistics. The support averages out at 9% (which is somewhat less than 1 in 10).
    Adding up the statistical support won’t do as the same person that supports AQ will support the TTP. Using your logic by adding up the opposition, 300% of Pakistanis oppose terrorists!?

    The sample size was quite small too. Certainly less than a million.

    I already admitted the support was high, but simply advised not to exaggerate as you do. The report itself claims:

    “A Pew Research Center spring 2015 survey
    found that Pakistanis were extremely critical of these terrorist
    organizations and supported government action to fight extremists. And
    they were also much more confident in the ability of the Pakistani
    government, led by Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif, to tackle extremist
    groups than they were in 2014.”

    As for the Ahmeddiya’s. The claim states that they are not Muslims but does not constitute an anti-Ahmeddiya pledge. In any case I do think it should be removed. Besides this is neither here nor there, I was opposing your fallacious claim that Pakistanis (which includes Ahmeddis btw) support terrorism.Recommend

  • Anwar Ali

    Every human in respect of race, class, creed, color feels that the cultures he possesses is not inferior to others. The goodness of such perception get a jolt when it becomes monolithic and non-pluralistic. The first novel laureate of the Indian-subcontinent Rabindranath Tagore’s example can be cited in this regard when he exhorted to interact and adopt others cultures and ideas of fairs. So to our brothers & sisters who always lament and compare others culture as totally bad and inferior and think should be outrightly rejected are damaging themselves.Recommend

  • Anwar Ali

    Every body in respect of race, Class, creed, color feels that the cultures he possesses are not inferior to others. The goodness of such perception counter jolt when it becomes monolithic and non pluralistic. The first Nobel laureates of the Indian sub-continent Rabindranath Tagore’s example can be cited when he exhorted to interact and adopt others’ cultures and ideas of fairs. So to those who lament and compare other cultures as totally bad and think should be outrightly rejected are damaging themselves.Recommend

  • http://peddarowdy.wordpress.com/ Anoop

    See, here is the thing, I think you are not honest.

    Can you tell me your favorite book written in Shahmukhi script by a Pakistani Author? Can you recommend 3 books in Shahmukhi from Pakistan released in 2016?

    You say Shahmukhi is Punjabi and is alive and kicking.

    Point #1: If you say is true, then you will be able to answer the questions I have asked.

    Point #2: Even if Shahmukhi is that alive, you seem to be saying Gurmukhi can die, as long as Shahmukhi exists. Do you see the problem with this statement?

    There is no such thing as Aryan invasion. DNA Science proves there is very little variation in Indian genes, leading to the conclusion that there was no early settlers and migration happened over time in India. No invasion happened at the expense of the early inhabitants.Recommend

  • Sane

    We have caught hundreds of Hindu terrorists operating in Pakistan having beard and attired as locals. Who is that one guy you are referring, is that Kalbhoshan Singh, who is serving Indian navy officer? If he is that, then he has confessed an extensive Indian govt. sponsored terrorism network in Pakistan. In the same way as you did in East Pakistan. This is not going to work one more time. Have some shame.Recommend

  • gp65

    The last incident of Sati happened 35 years back. Far fewer people have converted from Islam to Hinduism through Ghar Wapasi than have converted from Hinduism to Christianity or Islam. Ghar Wapasi is not forced conversion unlike what happens to minor girls in Sind. Please consider why proportion of Muslims in India is 50% more than it was in 1947 and proportion of Hindus in Pakistan is 90% less.
    What happened to Mohammed Akhlaq was totally wrong but it was also an exception. That is why there was furore in India, while there is not a whimper when Ahmadi graves are desecrated.Recommend

  • http://peddarowdy.wordpress.com/ Anoop

    Lets start from the top.

    1) I said “1 in 4 Pakistanis support one of the other Terror group”. The proof I presented said 24% of Pakistanis support LeT. That translates to 1 in 4.

    2) You presented an updated survey which said 14% Pakistanis support LeT. That becomes 1 in 7. This is being consistent and I am actually updating myself with the latest data!

    “The support averages out at 9% ”

    The average is not a correct methodology as we are not talking about a mean. We are talking about the percentage of Pakistanis which support any Terror group. We have to go with the higher number, not the mean. Clearly, since 14% of the sample size support LeT, you cannot say “9% of Pakistan support one or other Terror group”. That’s incorrect.

    I am being generous to Pakistan.

    Let me explain why: (Assumption) If 14 people out of 100 support LeT, 9 support Al Qaeda, the actual number of people supporting “one or the other Terror group” is a minimum 14, that’s not an actual number. The actual number is probably higher. Someone who supports LeT, might not support Al Qaeda and one who support AQ might not support LeT. I am assuming the best case scenario here.

    You can’t add statistics like that. I don’t think you understand basics of statistics.

    Pakistanis say the people who support Terrorists are minute, but when you break the numbers to them, they either pretend to not understand it, or run away. You have taken the former.
    And, really? The pledge isn’t an anti-Ahmadi pledge? You are attacking their core belief system! You are mocking them and saying the prophet they believe in is not a real prophet! This is what I am talking about – you guys are morally bankrupt. You can’t even recognize discrimination when its right in front of you.
    If Pakistan, someday, requires you to sign Shias are not Muslims, would you be ok with it? Sheer hypocrisy and bigotry.Recommend

  • http://peddarowdy.wordpress.com/ Anoop

    I’ve already written a detailed answer. I am certain it won’t pass the censors, even though I’ve not abused(not my style). Its just how ET works.

    I would like to share 11th standards Statistics books, from NCERT, which we use in India. I understand the school system in Pakistan is not as advanced as in India. So, I want to help.

    http://ncerthelp.com/text.php?ques=Download+Statistics+Text+Books+For+11+and+12+pdf+

    The material is quite good and it is well written(at least it was when I was in 11th and 12th). Hope this improves your knowledge.Recommend

  • http://peddarowdy.wordpress.com/ Anoop

    Considering the 1.3 Billion population, the incidents are very minute, anomalies. You cannot draw conclusions in such isolated incidents, which are bound to occur in such a sample size.
    There are 1.4 Billion Muslims. Compare the incidences of intolerance in the Muslim world and India. Pakistan alone has more incidences of violence and extreme intolerance than India.Recommend

  • http://peddarowdy.wordpress.com/ Anoop

    This is hilarious!

    Bulleh Shah was an born in 1680. The British had just arrived in India. I am quite certain Bulleh Shah could not have written any poetry in Shahmukhi script in 2016. Also, per my knowledge(please correct me if I am wrong), Pakistan was not born by the time he died.

    A lie to cover up another. What a shame. You have the gall to call me a liar!

    Your statement “As for Punjabi, Shahmukhi is as valid a script as Gurmukhi which is still alive.”
    Its alive, but nobody uses it anymore. And, Bulleh Shah is Pakistani!! Haha.

    We Indians know Pakistan better than you guys do. We just know the right questions to ask, don’t we. We wonder we are so annoying. We are smarter, better educated and have excellent memory.

    My advice to you is: Pick your battles. Its okay to be self critical. DO NOT LIE! If you challenge someone in a debate, be sure to fact check. If presented with opposing proof or updated numbers accept it gracefully(Like I did when you presented me with latest PEW survey).

    The fact is Shahmukhi and Gurmukhi, both have died in Pakistan. Its the same with many examples you cite. Arabic script is spreading at the cost of local scripts. You are just too arrogant to admit this. You are probably young and full of rebellious spirit. Unfortunately, with limited knowledge, this spirit is getting wasted. Recommend

  • http://peddarowdy.wordpress.com/ Anoop

    Dude, you seriously need to update yourself. Your own Govt made deals with Fazlullah. Read this.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nizam-e-Adl_Regulation_2009

    Imran Khan, even called them misguided Pakistanis. So, TTP named him as their negotiator!

    https://www.dawn.com/news/1084259
    These things are ON the internet.
    Your Army supported TTP, your Govt made deals with them, your politicians supported TTP. Now, how did they become Indian proxies?
    TTP are being supported by PTI, Army and locals. India has nothing to do with its creation. Probably some pro-TTP Army generals are still supporting TTP clandestinely.Recommend

  • Farha

    As said below Bulleh Shahs poetry is in Shahmukhi.

    All languages and scripts should be preserved (including Gurmukhi) but can you tell me how many Farsi speakers there are in India? It was the court language even for the Sikhs.

    Plus, it’s not Pakistan that has divided it’s Punjabis into Hindustani and Punjabi speakers. It’s India that has done that. And while India may have no national language, only Hindi and English are official. If I may presume, you may know both these languages despite the fact that they are “alien” to you.

    Urdu and Persian script, are as “alien” to us as Hindi is to most Indians and you haven’t really answered the question. Do you think Urdu speakers in India, Ghalib and Muslims in general are alien? How is this different from Savarkar’s thought or do you support him?

    Yoga is still relatively popular, but it is Hindu nationalists who communalize it. Maybe it would become more popular if the RSS stop insisting on it being compulsory? Just a thought.

    As for the Saree, people may wear it if they want but your dichotomy between Saris and Burkas is inaccurate. There are thousands of dresses which include Kurtas, Lehengas, Sherwanis, Shawls and all kinds of stuff. Why insist on one dresscode?

    “There is no such thing as Aryan invasion. ”
    I never said there was, but migration still existed and most evidence points towards it. The data is still somewhat unclear and there is a lot of propaganda from both sides (but mostly from Hindu nationalists), but DNA evidence up till now still divides Indians into “Ancestral South Indians” (ASI) and “Ancestral North Indians” (ANI) which points to variation. Plus, it is abundantly clear that Sanskrit is an Indo-European language. Is it (and it’s derivative Hindi) “alien” too?

    These are the opinions of most researchers, Hindu nationalists and the filmmakers of “Mohenjedaro” notwithstanding. You are the one not being completely honest here by pretending you are the true natives with no outside influence. After all, whether right or wrong, Dravidian nationalists have existed too. And if you agree that diversity is good, then why exclude Islam and Urdu?
    .Recommend

  • Rohan

    You have caught 0 Indian terrorists.Even kulbhushan was kidnapped from Iran and his confession looks like a badly edite lollywood movie with 100 cuts, so its bogus and how conveniently you ignore mass genocide and rape in east Pakistan.Long live Bangladesh Recommend

  • Farha

    “You can’t add statistics like that. I don’t think you understand basics of statistics.”

    You are now backtracking from your claim of 1 in 2 now which was simply mathematically impossible as demonstrated. Since you did not defend it, I presume you admit it was simply a product of your exaggeration and hysteria.

    Similarly, even in your own statistics the support for AQ and Taliban was only 9-10% (LET stats not available) in 2009. So here again 9-10% is completely accurate.

    “you guys are morally bankrupt”
    “You are attacking their core belief system!”

    This coming from a guy who attacks Islam as “alien” and wants discriminatory beef ban blasphemy laws in place? Really?

    And please don’t respond with your laughable justifications for them and distract this conversation further. I’ve already clarified that the Ahmadi dis-affirmation should be removed.

    For you, it seems bigotry only seems to count when it’s across the other side of the border.Recommend

  • Farha

    “I am certain it won’t pass the censors”

    Well. Your observations are as accurate as they always are, I must say.Recommend

  • Farha

    My comment about Bulleh Shah (written 3 days ago) was written in addendum to my first comment and not in response to yours (written 2 days ago). My more detailed response is above.

    “Bulleh Shah is Pakistani!!”

    Come now. Now you are clearly misrepresenting me and you know it. It is obviously true that he wasn’t (and neither was Iqbal, Syed Ahmad or Ghalib) in a sense of citizenship and I never said he was. Neither were they citizens of modern day India for that matter.

    The fact that Bulleh Shah was a 17/18th century poet who lived before Pakistan was created was (to me) so obvious that I thought it impossible for someone else to misunderstand but I guess anythings possible…

    It’s easy to counter ones arguments when you straw-man them so badly.

    The point which any observant reader would understand was that his Punjabi poetry is still popular, alive and well. To claim that it is dead is quite untrue. Punjabi is the most widely spoken language in Pakistan.

    ” Shahmukhi and Gurmukhi, both have died in Pakistan. Its the same with
    many examples you cite. Arabic script is spreading at the cost of local
    scripts. ”

    Here you make no sense at all. Shahmukhi IS a Perso-Arabic script. How can it die while spreading at the cost of other scripts?

    “We Indians know Pakistan better than you guys do”
    Recommend

  • Patwari

    Who is this Mohd. Akhlaq ? Is he the first one who converted to hinduism under the Ghar Wapsi Scam? He got paid.
    Got paid money. Hope they paid him in dollars [US]…not Hong Kong.$’s
    Nobody here is singing praises about Pristine
    Pakland, or how, Land of the Pure, is a shining city on the hill. No one.
    Far from it. It is a third world country. with a sickening human rights record.
    And, under a near death choke hold of the mullahs. With religious fanatics and extremists running rampant. Your life is in danger if you
    are a Shia or Agha Khani or Ismaili Shia or Zikri or Ahmadi. No denying that.
    Now these are Muslim sects. Did not even bring up the other minorities. Like hindus etc.Their status is critical. They are underwater, not even above.
    You are correct. No disputing your ready to pull out of the bag mantras.
    However, make no mistake, Mother India is also a basket case. With the
    same duplicate set of problems. More so since Modi Sarkar got enthroned. He considers himself The Hindu BJP Peshwa.of Bharat.
    From a beautiful, secular, exotic, mysterious, country, Hindustan turned
    into a purgotry,.. ‘hindus only,…the rest leave’
    Do wish there could be a long fireside chat with you. Peruse the different
    topics. But…er…not in Texas.
    Prefer the Rockies or the Great Northern Plains….did you get it?Recommend

  • http://peddarowdy.wordpress.com/ Anoop

    My comment has passed the censors! You can find my detailed answer in the blog comments.
    I would love to continue the debate till its settled.Recommend

  • http://peddarowdy.wordpress.com/ Anoop

    Read my comment about Bulleh Shah. You claimed Shahmukhi is still alive in Pakistan, but I ask you a simple question and ask you to name a book, you say Bulleh Shah, who died in the 18th century!

    Farsi is not even an Indian language! Who cares if nobody speaks it.

    What a hollow knowledge about partition. Wrong guy to show off incorrect knowledge. In 1946, Jinnah blackmailed Congress and said “We will divide India or destroy it”. Clearly, Jinnah wanted Partition. Congress was opposed to it. You can’t blame it on Congress or India.

    “while India may have no national language”

    Basically, you will say anything, without bothering to fact check.

    India has more than 23 official languages. I can open up a bank account, apply for passport, aadhar card, ration card, all crucial services, in Kannada, my language, written in Kannada script. I would love to know if you have any application in the “alive” Shahmukhi script.

    Urdu is an Indian language, genius, born in Lucknow. Urdu is not even a Language, its a dialect of Hindi. Its wrongly classified as a separate language to assuage the feelings Muslims from the Ganges belt. It has no relations to Pakistan. Even Jinnah himself, didn’t know Urdu. At the time of Partition, more Pakistanis spoke Bengali(58%) than Urdu(7%). Since, Jinnah couldn’t even understand the language and in his whim, declared Urdu to be language of Pakistan, ensuring he was the creator of Bangla movement. Urdu has nothing to do with Pakistan. It was imposed by a man who didn’t even know the language, nor his people. Nehru was much wiser, as he had travelled all over India and like Gandhi, knew his people well. He even wrote books on India and its history. Jinnah was so clueless, he allied with Feudals(Union Party) and till date there have been no land reforms in Pakistan, which Nehru ensured happened in 1951. Jinnah never uttered a word against Feudals.

    If you can discriminate against Ahmadis and tell them you don’t belong to the Islamic sect, why do you have problems with Savarkar saying Muslims don’t belong to India? Isn’t this hypocritical?

    If Yoga is popular, please name 10 Yoga studios in Lahore or Karachi. I haven’t gotten an answer to the question. RSS has nothing to do with Yoga dying in Pakistan. Yoga is universal. Its practiced all over the world, even by Muslims. Only Indian Muslims have a problem with it, as they don’t associate themselves with the local culture.

    Sanskrit is an Indo-European language. But, its origins are in India. Hence, the term “Indo”. This, BTW, is dead in Pakistan, too. Arabic and Chinese, on the other hand, alive and kicking and are up and coming languages.

    I have already acknowledged migration happened in trickles(comment was not passed) in India. There was no invasion. There was a harmonious mixing of cultures, new languages were born, new customs were born, all indigenous to India.

    http://archaeologyonline.net/artifacts/genetics-aryan-debate

    “thirteen Indian scientists led by Susanta Roychoudhury studied 644 samples of mtDNA from some ten Indian ethnic groups, especially from the East and South.12 They found “a fundamental unity of mtDNA lineages in India, in spite of the extensive cultural and linguistic diversity,” pointing to “a relatively small founding group of females in India.”

    You are quoting imaginary researchers, I am quoting and presenting proof. India has genetic diversity and adequate variation, but nothing indicates there was any invasion of any kind.Recommend

  • Farha

    “My comment has passed the censors!”
    That was my pointRecommend

  • http://peddarowdy.wordpress.com/ Anoop

    Oh! I see what you are saying. I said 1 in 2, which is a typo. I meant 1 in 4. My bad. I apologize for the confusion.

    After you updated the PEW survey, it clearly says LeT enjoys 14% support. Which now translates to 1 in 7 people.

    http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/03/30/prior-to-lahore-bombing-pakistanis-were-critical-of-taliban-and-other-extremist-groups/ft_16-03-30-pakistanextremistgroups/

    Yes, really. Beef ban is pro-cow. Indian treat Cows as pets and keep them in their house. There are similar bans on Dog and Cat culling and its meat in the US. Many cultures around the world consume Dog meat and people from such cultures live in the US. Its just respecting the people’s sentiment. US bans Dog meat, India bans Cow meat.
    You are comparing the plea to save an animal’s life to your appalling actions against Ahmadis?

    You said the declaration is not anti-Ahmadi at all! You seemed to suggest its not discrimination.

    “The claim states that they are not Muslims but does not constitute an anti-Ahmeddiya pledge.”

    If so, why do you want it to be removed? Since, its not anti-Ahmadi.
    Another question is if you have signed this pledge, you have consciously discriminated against a minority community for personal gain. If you have, you are no different than the perpetrators of crimes against Ahmadis.
    I am certain(correct me if I am wrong), all Pakistanis sign this pledge, which means all Pakistanis have actively discriminated against a minority group. How different are they from LeJ, a certified sectarian, Terror group? Only in degrees.Recommend

  • Farha

    “My bad. I apologize for the confusion.”

    Is that really true. In any case my points are very simple:

    1) It is unfair to take something at its peak popularity and then generalize. This applies to the 1 in 4 point too.

    2) Support for terrorism has generally declined. Even if I agree that it was once 1 in 4, it is now 1 in 7, and from hereon it will decline further. Most people including the government is tired of the LET too and I know they make symbolic gestures at times, but discontent is certainly growing.

    “Beef ban is pro-cow.”

    Yes, just like blasphemy laws are pro-religion. Beef is sacred in Hinduism. Killing or eating it is blasphemy and they therefore function no different from blasphemy laws. I’m all for respecting religious beliefs but having them in law is discrimination.

    People are lynched and killed for this (just like blasphemy laws) and yet the only thing you can think of is the animal? Who is the one placing animals above humans here?

    “If so, why do you want it to be removed?”

    Because I don’t believe religion should mix with politics. Even without the pledge, I’m sure many Muslims will still not accept Ahmedis as Muslims. Sad fact but it’s true.

    And yes this is different from the LEJ. There is a difference between theological opinion and attacking people. Many Hindus do not accept the Hare Krishna movement or Arya Smajists as being orthodox Hindu, but they do not commit terrorist attacks.Recommend

  • Farha

    (sigh) so much propaganda and misunderstandings… here goes:

    “Farsi is not even an Indian language! Who cares if nobody speaks it.”

    Who decides what is and isn’t and Indian language? It has been spoken in India for a pretty long time and has a long history. English isn’t an Indian language either.

    “You can’t blame it on Congress or India.”
    I really do have to spell everything out for you don’t I… I was taking of the partition of East Punjab into (Punjabi speaking) Punjab and (Hindi speaking) Haryana.This should have been obvious. If Pakistan actually created an Urdustan you would never have let it go but I guess it’s kosher when India uses the language card for division (or the religion card for that matter).

    As far as partition is concerned, Jinnah was against the division of Punjab and was open to the Cabinet mission plan and a united Bengal. Even Congress stalwart, Maulana Abdul Kalam thought that Congress negotiated very badly with the League.

    “In 1946, Jinnah blackmailed Congress and said “We will divide India or destroy it”.”

    This is a fabricated quote. Jinnah never said this. What he actually said was that if peace was not reached “We will either have a divided India or a destroyed India.””. This un-modified carries a very different message and was in essence was a call to peace to warn against violence. It was no different than Gandhi’s claim that “”If India wants bloodbath she shall have it … if a bloodbath was necessary, it would come about in spite of non-violence””. In-fact Gandhi’s comments are even more bellicose since it speaks of a bloodbath but no one ever claimed that he was blackmailing the British.

    In any case Jinnah always emphasized peace and said ““I enjoin upon the Muslims to carry out the instructions and abide by them strictly and conduct themselves peacefully and in a disciplined manner.”” Violence broke out yes, but this was no different than violence during the Congress non-cooperation for example the Chauri Chura incident or the Moplah rebellion during the Khilafat movement.

    Most authorities agree that “Jinnah had called for peaceful demonstrations all over India on Direct Action Day, and most of India, including the Muslim majority provinces of the Punjab and Sind (in the latter the Muslim League was part of a coalition government) remained calm.”

    I have seen your previous comments and the Direct action manifesto you hold as a smoking gun actually contradicts your claim.

    For example it speaks of:
    “Complete hartal and general strike in all
    spheres of civic, commercial and industrial life save
    and except the essential services of water works,
    hospitals, physicians’ clinics, maternity centres, light,
    electricity, gas and postal services.”

    “Processions, “Kafelas” and “Akharas” with
    music bands”

    “Joint mass rally and meeting”

    “Representatives of minorities, suppressed and
    oppressed people”…”fight for the equal freedom of the
    Muslims, the Hindus”…etc

    It speaks of a peaceful non-cooperation protest which was exactly what Satyagarha was. The few references of Jihad are symbolic and not even part of the main plan. I could go on but this is not the place to discuss the Calcutta riots which I may remind you led to mostly Muslim deaths and being described as a “large pogrom against poor Muslims by Hindu toughs, with one smaller pogrom against poor Hindus by Muslim toughs”. Something even Congress agreed upon with Sardar Patel claiming ““This [The Calcutta Killings] will be a good lesson for the League,
    because I hear that the proportion of Muslims who have suffered death is much larger.””.

    “Jinnah was so clueless, he allied with Feudals(Union Party)”

    The Unionist party was actually pro-Congress . From what I recall this has been debunked by another commentor long ago when responding to you. I can’t be bothered to dig up the past but suffice to say the “Unionist leader Sir Sikandar remained undisputed in the Punjab and he
    remained the Punjab’s Premier (Chief Minister) from 1937 to 1942, in alliance with the Indian National Congress and the Shiromani Akali Dal despite Jinnah’s opposition to both parties , preventing both Jinnah and Sir Muhammad Iqbal from gaining the support of a majority of Punjabi Muslims..”

    They hurried to join the League when it became apparent that the Muslim League was becoming popular in the Punjab but this actually led to its destruction due to opposition from Sikh and Hindu feudals. It is true that Punjabi feudals nowdays try to pretend that they supported the Muslim League since it is convenient but the truth really is otherwise.

    ” Urdu is not even a Language, its a dialect of Hindi.”

    I’m not interested in these childish Hindi/Urdu, Farsi/Dari, etc debates so I will refrain from denigrating Hindi in response. It’s pretty clear that both languages have a long history and have developed uniquely. Claiming that Urdu is a form of Hindi would be like claiming English is a form of German and French. There are historical roots but languages eventually evolve.

    “India has more than 23 official languages.”

    Yes “State official languages” but as far as the constitution goes “The Constitution of India designates the official language of the Government of India as Hindi written in the Devanagari script, as well as English.” Even Pakistan has what you say at the provincial level. For example the Sindhi language is the official language of Sindh.

    “If you can discriminate against Ahmadis and tell them you don’t belong to the Islamic sect, why do you have problems with Savarkar saying Muslims don’t belong to India?”

    Now this is just absurd. Firstly as repeated multiple times, I am against the declaration of Ahmedis as non-Muslims. So was Jinnah. The Congress supporting Majlis-e-Ahrar was the most anti Ahmediyya party at the time.

    Secondly, there is a very big difference between excluding someone from a religion and excluding someone from a nation. The equivalent of Savarkar would have been if Pakistan stripped Ahmedis of their citizenship. No one has ever said they don’t belong to Pakistan.

    ” There was no invasion. There was a harmonious mixing of cultures, new languages were born, new customs were born, all indigenous to India.”

    I never said there was one as mentioned above. But surely “harmonious mixing of cultures”… is quite an exaggeration. There were certainly periods of violence as well. The warrior kingdoms of ancient India didn’t exist to shower each other with flowers.

    “I am quoting and presenting proof.”
    “http://archaeologyonline.net/

    Your “proof” is exactly what I am talking about. I know it’s rude to judge an article by its site but can you really blame me for having doubts about such an obvious pro-Hindu site full with adds for miracles of the Bhagwad-gita? How is this different from pro-Islamic sites that try to put a scientific veneer on the miracles of Islam?

    As for the article itself, yes genetic data is inconclusive but the primary problem for Aryan-migration revisionists is that they have no plausible alternative model. The only one they have is the out-of-India theory which is not respected by most academics to put it lightly.

    I’m not an nativist or but the fact that someone who is one, would defend North Indian Vedic culture while deploring others for not being nativist is ironic to say the least.Recommend

  • http://peddarowdy.wordpress.com/ Anoop

    Islamic Radicalism is not a new phenomena in Pakistani history. It existed when Jinnah called “Jehad” for 1946 Direct Action day(read Direct Action Manifesto), 5000 Hindus were butchered in Naokali under a Muslim League Govt, ruled by Suhrawardy. It existed when Ahmadi’s were tagged non-Muslims by ZAB. It changes shape and form, but ever present.

    Just like you are asking me not to look at peak numbers and conclude, I am asking you to do the same. Due to horrible domestic policies, Terror numbers were incredibly high in Pakistan and due to Kashmir obsession and Afghanistan scenario, there was massive Radicalization in Pakistan. It has come down, but this was just a correction. The general trend however is there is massive support for Islamist causes, especially in Kashmir and Afghanistan. Due to such levels of Islamism Blasphemy Laws will never be repealed in our lifetimes. History of Pakistan is replete with such examples of intolerance and bigotry. I’ve given examples from 40s(Direct Action Day) and 50s and 60s(anti-Ahmadi riots). Heck, Jinnah nearly disowned his daughter for marrying a non-Muslim!

    “Yes, just like blasphemy laws are pro-religion.”

    I am sorry. I can’t agree with this false equivalence. You completely ignored another example of meat banning in the US. This is a secular law, based on the sentiments of locals. Dogs are pets in the US and hence, meat and consumption of Dog meat is banned, depending on which state you are looking at. Same with Cats. Cow is an animal similarly dear to many Indians. Cows are our Dogs. India has a rich culture of tolerance towards Animals.
    I have never supported lynching. You are assuming things. I support Beef ban, not the lynching. To say life of an Animal is worth far less than a Human is inhuman and unindian. Indian culture celebrates nature and appreciates it. All life is precious. India has the highest number of Vegetarians in the world! Indian philosophy(which includes Buddhist and Jain worldviews), is of avoidance of unnecessary violence towards all beings.

    Blasphemy law has nothing to do with all this. Stop using false equivalencies to prove your point. I am not biting. Sorry. This law sadly exists in India, but not one person has been convicted of it in the last 20 years. Its mostly a British era relic, which is mostly toothless and won’t pass the Constitution test in SC.

    If you support the Blasphemy Law in Pakistan, its goes to show your moral depravity, as numbers clearly show only minorities, especially Ahmadis, are accused of Blasphemy, which requires very little evidence and trial rarely completes. Most accused are killed by their fellow inmates or guards(Salman Taseer was killed by his own guard). Comparing such horrid laws, to something like Beef ban in India or Dog meat ban in the US shows that you will go to any length in proving your point, even supporting a horrid law.

    “Because I don’t believe religion should mix with politics.”

    LeJ attack Shias for being non-Muslims. You attack Ahmadis in writing, by signing on a piece of document. LeJ takes the extreme step, you contribute to this extremism by condoning it by signing the document. LeJ is the extreme manifestation of this intolerance, you signing that document is the first step.
    A state has no business dictating who belongs to what Religion. You by signing such a pledge are agreeing to the discrimination and actively participating in it.
    You say many Muslims don’t consider Ahmadis as Muslims, but seem to have a problem with Savarkar saying Muslims are not Indians. Why such double standards?
    I can proudly say I have not discriminated against anyone, nor has my state forced me to.
    I am still waiting for proof that Shahmukhi, the script, not Punjabi Poetry of Bulleh Shah, is alive and kicking in Pakistan. I am still waiting for you to suggest 3 books written in Shahmukhi in 2016.
    Am I right? Is Shahmukhi dead? Has Arabic script replaced it? Cultural invasion of Arabia has claimed another victim?
    You have similarly claimed Yoga is alive, but again, no proof.
    No Basant pictures as well. Usually Dawn and ET post colourful pics of Diwali and Holi in Pakistan. Basant pics are never found. So, yet another victim of Islamism?Recommend

  • http://peddarowdy.wordpress.com/ Anoop

    What happened @Farha?
    I am still waiting for some form of proof that Shahmukhi is alive in Pakistan. Or were you intentionally misleading?Recommend

  • http://peddarowdy.wordpress.com/ Anoop

    Why have you run away?

    I am dying to know how alive Shahmukhi is in Pakistan. I’m dying to read books written in Shahmukhi.

    Please hurry!Recommend

  • Farha

    I answered but the comment did not pass. Here is the short version:

    Bulleh Shah’s poetry appears in Shahmukhi in book form. Please connect the dots. And the reason I mention him is because like Shakespeare in English, he is the most popular and not the most recent.

    You don’t even know that Shamukhi is a Perso-Arabic scriptRecommend

  • Farha

    (sigh) so much propaganda and misunderstandings… here goes. ET you publish his taunts but not my comments? Forgive them for being long but it can’t be helped:

    “Farsi is not even an Indian language! Who cares if nobody speaks it.”

    Who decides what is and isn’t and Indian language? It has been spoken in India for a pretty long time and has a long history. English isn’t an Indian language either.

    “You can’t blame it on Congress or India.”
    I really do have to spell everything out for you don’t I… I was talking of the partition of East Punjab into (Punjabi speaking) Punjab and (Hindi speaking) Haryana.This should have been obvious. If Pakistan actually created an Urdustan you would never have let it go but I guess it’s kosher when India uses the language card for division (or the religion card for that matter).

    As far as partition is concerned, Jinnah was against the division of Punjab and was open to the Cabinet mission plan and a united Bengal. Even Congress stalwart, Maulana Abdul Kalam thought that Congress negotiated very badly with the League. Looking at it this way, and using your logic, Gandhi and Nehru were responsible for millions of dead in the partition violence. Reports indicate that Sardar Patel even encouraged it and Nehru’s operation Polo lead to 200,000 more dead.

    “In 1946, Jinnah blackmailed Congress and said “We will divide India or destroy it”.”
    “Jinnah was so clueless, he allied with Feudals(Union Party)”
    (Responded to this in the other blog)

    ” Urdu is not even a Language, its a dialect of Hindi.”

    I’m not interested in these childish Hindi/Urdu, Farsi/Dari, etc debates so I will refrain from denigrating Hindi in response. It’s pretty clear that both languages have a long history and have developed uniquely. Claiming that Urdu is a form of Hindi would be like claiming English is a form of German and French. There are historical roots but languages eventually evolve.

    “India has more than 23 official languages.”

    Yes “State official languages” but as far as the constitution goes “The Constitution of India designates the official language of the Government of India as Hindi written in the Devanagari script, as well as English.” Even Pakistan has what you say at the provincial level. For example the Sindhi language is the official language of Sindh.

    “If you can discriminate against Ahmadis and tell them you don’t belong to the Islamic sect, why do you have problems with Savarkar saying Muslims don’t belong to India?”

    Now this is just absurd. Firstly as repeated multiple times, I am against the declaration of Ahmedis as non-Muslims. So was Jinnah. The Congress supporting Majlis-e-Ahrar was the most anti Ahmediyya party at the time.

    Secondly, there is a very big difference between excluding someone from a religion and excluding someone from a nation. The equivalent of Savarkar would have been if Pakistan stripped Ahmedis of their citizenship. No one has ever said they don’t belong to Pakistan.

    ” There was no invasion. There was a harmonious mixing of cultures, new languages were born, new customs were born, all indigenous to India.”

    I never said there was one as mentioned above. But surely “harmonious mixing of cultures”… is quite an exaggeration. There were certainly periods of violence as well. The warrior kingdoms of ancient India didn’t exist to shower each other with flowers.

    “I am quoting and presenting proof.”
    “http://archaeologyonline.net/

    Your “proof” is exactly what I am talking about. I know it’s rude to judge an article by its site but can you really blame me for having doubts about such an obvious pro-Hindu site full with adds for miracles of the Bhagwad-gita? How is this different from pro-Islamic sites that try to put a scientific veneer on the miracles of Islam?

    As for the article itself, yes genetic data is inconclusive but the primary problem for Aryan-migration revisionists is that they have no plausible alternative model. The only one they have is the out-of-India theory which is not respected by most academics to put it lightly.

    I’m not an nativist or but the fact that someone who is one, would defend North Indian Vedic culture while deploring others for not being nativist is ironic to say the least. Aryan imperialism claims another victim? I’m not the one who says this (I’m not a nativist), some Dravidian nationalist would. You see how these attitudes are self-defeating.Recommend

  • Farha

    I won’t go over DAD again in this comment. Not worth repeating and debunking the same things at least here.

    “5000 Hindus were butchered in Naokali under a Muslim League Govt”

    And even more were in Bihar under a Congress controlled government. Infact the whole reason the spiral of riots started was because Muslims were killed in Calcutta by Congress and Mahasabha supporters, something agreed upon by everyone.

    “Heck, Jinnah nearly disowned his daughter for marrying a non-Muslim!”

    Also untrue. You really are head over heels for Hinduvta propaganda.

    ” I direct my executors to set apart Rs. 200,000/- (two lacs) or (two hundred thousands) which will at 6% bring an income of Rs. 1,000/- one thousand and pay the income thereof whatever it be to my daughter every
    month for her life or during her lifetime and after her death the corpusof two lacs so set apart to be divided equally between her children, males or females, in default of issue the corpus to fall into my residuary estate.

    ” I’ve given examples from”

    India has been through troubled times as well. Operation Polo (where 100,000+ were killed, not exaggerating, India govt suppressed the number of deaths) , Bluestar, Gujrat riots, Gandhi’s assassination, etc. History of India is replete with examples of intolerance and bigotry too.

    “If you support the Blasphemy Law in Pakistan”

    I said I oppose it, just like I oppose beef ban blasphemy laws. You may not yourself support lynching but it does happen and I am sure there are many Pakistanis who say Ahmedis are not Muslims BUT don’t want to hurt them. Or want blasphemy to be banned but not kill people over it. It is a perfect equivalence. Don’t be hypocritical, denounce both or neither. The same apologia you use to excuse yourself from the lynchers can be used to excuse blasphemy law supporters as well i.e they support the law but not the killings. If that is the first step to discrimination then so are beef-bans.

    “To say life of an Animal is worth far less than a Human is inhuman and unindian.”

    Not sure what you mean by “far less” but It IS LESS. Your moral system will result in monstrosities (as it already does with lynchings of beef-eaters). A chicken is not worth a human life.

    Now you are just panicking and trying to justify absurdities.
    .As said before, I am not interested in these nonsense justifications.

    As for Savarkar, Shahmukhi, etc. I have already answered in separate comments. Wait for them to appear. I will try to repost them if they don’t show up.Recommend

  • http://peddarowdy.wordpress.com/ Anoop

    You are answering the question: Was Shahmukhi ever alive in Pakistan? I
    am not asking this question, nor is this your claim. Your claim was
    Shahmukhi IS alive and kicking in Pakistan. Your claim was in present
    tense and Bulleh Shah is not present, nor is his writing.

    You said Shahmukhi is alive, which means people use it in their day to day lives and books are written in that script, newspapers come out in the script.

    I quote you: “As for Punjabi, Shahmukhi is as valid a script as Gurmukhi which is still alive”

    Lets keep it simple, its a simple request.

    P.S. I know you were lying and this is super fun for me.Recommend

  • http://peddarowdy.wordpress.com/ Anoop

    “It has been spoken in India for a pretty long time and has a long “”history.”

    As you point out, English is NOT an Indian language as it was not originated in India. Same with Farzi. Let Farzi die, I don’t care. If French or Dutch dies in India, I wouldn’t give two hoots.

    “Plus, it’s not Pakistan that has divided it’s Punjabis into Hindustani and Punjabi speakers.

    “India uses the language card for division”

    This has been by far the most smartest decision by the Congress Govt. It has worked out perfectly till date.

    Its not a “division”, but an administrative decision to realign or rearrange state borders to preserve the local culture from the influence of the other sub-cultures in the state. This has ensured, certain dialects and languages are still intact and and most importantly “ALIVE!!”. The reason I still speak, think, read and write in Kannada, the language of my ancestors. (I can bet anything you don’t know Shahmukhi, which you claim is alive).

    I know many people who live in Gurgoan(which is in Haryana), but work in Delhi and vice versa. Not really a “division”, is it.

    “was open to the Cabinet mission plan”

    Cabinet Mission Plan WAS NOT AN ULTIMATUM! It was just a plan that Congress rejected. ML was just another Islamist party, Congress spoke on behalf of all Indians and all Religions and sub-castes.

    Rejection of CMP, was the wisest thing to do. Jinnah wanted a soft division of India, where it would be flanked by 2 equal sized Muslim majority nations. Nehru put a stop to it and said he does not like the plan. He had no obligation to accept the plan. Any plan which doesn’t take the inputs of India’s biggest party, with proven record of support and which had won elections all over India for many years didn’t like the plan and its inputs weren’t respected. This was NOT a Democratic plan.

    Gandhi and Nehru were speaking on behalf of India in rejecting the plan. Jinnah came back and said he wanted Partition. Nehru said, if this has to be done, it has to be on our terms, being the single largest party of the country by a long margin. Jinnah asked for it, not Nehru! Nehru was happy with keeping India united and establishing the Govt in his vision all over British controlled India.

    “Claiming that Urdu is a form of Hindi would be like claiming English is a form of German and French.”

    Oh lord! I know English, but I can’t understand a simple sentence in French or German(Can you?). You know Urdu, but can understand Hindi movies fluently. How? Isn’t it a different language? Even a Pakistani kid who knows Urdu, with no background in Hindi, can understand Hindi movies or Cartoons the very first time. How?

    English, French and German are completely dissimilar to one another! They are different languages.

    How on Earth does your point make sense? Urdu and Hindi are mirror images on most occasions. They are dialects! I can speak Hindi and you can speak Urdu to each other and still understand each other perfect well. Because you and me are speaking the same language but different dialects.

    Simple basic common sense doesn’t seem to be your forte. The Aryan Invasion BS all over again. Writing without thinking.

    You said: “The Constitution of India designates the official language of the Government of India as Hindi written in the Devanagari”

    Again an administrative decision to ensure smooth functioning at the Central level. It is not even mandatory for a Parliamentarian to speak English/Hindi in Parliament. The spirit of the decision is smooth functioning of Govt and it is being achieved.

    I can file a complaint, apply for a bank account, petition the court, apply for a passport in Kannada, my language, basically perform any action which is my legal right without the knowledge of English or Hindi. Can a Punjabi do all this in Shahmukhi or Gurmukhi in Punjab?

    What about in Sindh? Can a person in Karachi request for passport or a bank account in Sindhi? I would request you to show me some online applications.

    I feel a Gotcha moment is coming up.

    “I am against the declaration of Ahmedis as non-Muslims.”

    You have the gall to say this after signing the declaration that Ahmadis are non-Muslim?

    “The Congress supporting Majlis-e-Ahrar was the most anti Ahmediyya party at the time.”

    Congress was actually allying with everyone. Congress was allying with Feudals, but still went ahead with Land Reforms. Same with Hindu Right. Same with Communists. Congress dealing with Majlis doesn’t mean anything.

    “there is a very big difference between excluding someone from a religion and excluding someone from a nation”

    Not if the said Nation’s identity revolves around Religion, the very basis is Religion, it is called an Islamic state and has Consitution says Religious laws will be the basis of all laws.

    You and many Pakistanis who discriminate against Ahmadis are no better or worse than RSS and Savarkar.

    “The warrior kingdoms of ancient India didn’t exist to shower each other with flowers.”

    For Kingdoms to be formed, first you need people. You can get people, when there is steady trickle of people over hundreds of years and establishing societies, villages, laws, institutions. You suddently jump to Kingdoms. Weird.

    “How is this different from pro-Islamic sites that try to put a scientific veneer on the miracles of Islam?”

    Because Islam is NOTHING like Hinduism and vice versa. Ancient Sanatana Dharma texts that talk about medicine, politics, finance and other subjects dont have to carry the burden of being God’s words. They are just ancient texts with unknown origin or an accumulation of the wisdom of the time. Everything has a Religious stamp in Islam. No wonder it is so much at odds with the Scientific world.

    “no plausible alternative model.”

    The plausible alternative model is a gradual trickling of various peoples. This was happening as the civilization was forming and evolved to what it is today. Aryan Invasion is pure rubbish.

    “Should the Aryan be considered alien too as Dravidian nationalists claim.

    Even Hinduism was once an Aryan religion which was “enforced” upon the native Dravidians.”

    So,here you were trying to lecture me about my own origins in order to defend the Arabic influence, which is replacing the indigenous cultures. Since, you never bothered to learn of your own origins, your Bharatiya past, your Sanatana Dharmic past, expecting you to fight Arabic cultural influences and fight for inidigenous cultures is a tough ask.Recommend

  • http://peddarowdy.wordpress.com/ Anoop

    “And even more were in Bihar under a Congress controlled government”

    Congress didn’t call the riots, ML did. ML drew first blood. Jinnah and Suhrawady lit the fire.

    If ML isn’t to blame, BJP isn’t to blame for Gujarat riots, either.

    “Also untrue. You really are head over heels for Hinduvta propaganda.”

    I didn’t mean he disowned her legally. Nehru attended his daughter’s wedding when Indira married a Parsi. Same thing happened to Jinnah and Jinnah didn’t attend the wedding.

    It was reported by Jinnah’s associate M C Chagla (in “Roses in
    December”) that when Dina married Neville, Jinnah said to her that she was not his daughter any more.

    Oooo! Vicious Hindutva propaganda!!!

    http://blogs.tribune.com.pk/story/30582/nehru-and-jinnah-had-the-same-problem-their-daughters-loved-men-they-did-not-approve-of/

    “India has been through troubled times as well.”

    Violence has not shaped India’s institutions, ideology nor policy. It has had no effect on Constitution nor Law. Pakistan on the other hand has laws which discriminate against almost all minorities and the frequency of violence is also consistent and on the higher side. For a nation 8 times smaller, it is far more violent!

    “History of India is replete with examples of intolerance and bigotry too.”

    Pretty naive to expect any country the size of India and the socio-economic conditions to not have a few instances of violence. After all India is 1/6th of the entire Human Race!!

    Considering the scale, India has been far more peaceful and law and order has more or less been achieved. Operation Polo did happen, but against a King and for Democracy. Bluestar was against extremism. Gujarat riots is a case of riots triggered by Muslims.

    Gandhi’s assassination, yes, it was a tragic affair. But, it had no bearing on how Congress treated any minority or majority groups. Today an RSS man uses Gandhi to spread his message and is also the PM of India.

    http://www.oneindia.com/videos/national-leprosy-eradication-programme-is-a-tribute-to-mahatma-gandhi-pm-modi-55697.html

    http://www.pmindia.gov.in/en/major_initiatives/swachh-bharat-abhiyan/

    “It is a perfect equivalence.”

    Ban of Dog meat is US = Ban of Cow meat in India. This is more equivalent. Peaceful banning of culling of animals very dear to both set of nations.

    “Or want blasphemy to be banned but not kill people over it. ”

    India has Blasphemy Laws too, we inherited it, just like Pakistan. Since, the institutions are stronger, there is no abuse. Not one person has been convicted of Blasphemy(as far as my knowledge goes). Blasphemy Law debate is more of an ideological debate for Pakistan, a fight between Islamists and pseudo liberal Pakistanis who don’t want to live under Sharia(they sense it is coming and creeping onto them).

    Beef ban is just respecting the feelings of Hindus, Jains and Buddhists, who are strict vegetarians and consider Cows either Holy or Pet or a Family Member.

    “A chicken is not worth a human life.”

    Why? Isn’t every life precious? There are bans on animal cruelty all over the world. Dog meat can get you jailed in the US. Go tell the American a Dog’s life is not worth as much as a Human’s. Recommend

  • Farha

    “Congress didn’t call the riots, ML did. ML drew first blood.”
    Actually the Congress and Mahasabha militant wings did. They were well prepared for it which is why it was Muslims who were killed in Calcutta.

    “I didn’t mean he disowned her legally.”

    Many people do indeed and even you would have if I had not brought the will up. You said he “nearly disowned” her when he never even considered doing so according to any report. This is, as usual, misinformation via half-truths.

    “Violence has not shaped India’s institutions”
    “Considering the scale, India has been far more peaceful and law and order has more or less been achieved.”

    These are simply excuses for violence. Operation Zarb-e Azb has been far less violent than both operation polo as well as Bluestar+1984 Sikh riots. If circumstances were reversed you would have said that Zarb-eAzb was against extremism, Datta Khel(Gilgit uprising) was for democracy against a king, while Gujrat riots, riots after operation Polo and the Sikh riots were terrible acts of bigotry (which they were).
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1984_anti-Sikh_riots

    This is simple hypocrisy.

    “But, it had no bearing on how Congress treated any minority or majority groups.”
    Actually many Hindu nationalists were arrested including Savarkar since Godse was a Mahasabha member.

    And obviously it had no bearing on minorities since the perpetrator was a Hindu. Circumstances would have been different if the perpetrator was a Muslim (see 1984 anti-Sikh riots). After Gandhi’s death the Indian govt. made sure everyone knew the assassin was a Hindu as mistaken information that he was a Muslim was being spread. Had it been a Muslim, reprisals against Muslims (which were already occurring) would have become either worse. Even if the Indian govt. tried to quell the chaos (as the Pakistan govt. tried to also do), this doesn’t speak well for the peacefulness of India’s inhabitants does it?

    “Today an RSS man uses Gandhi to spread his message”
    Yes that is ironic considering Godse’s political leanings. Kind of how the Jamaat-eIslami claims to be patrons of Pakistan despite opposing it tooth and nail during the Pakistan movement by either siding with the Congress or Maududi.

    “Beef ban is just respecting the feelings of Hindus, Jains and Buddhists,who are strict vegetarians and consider Cows either Holy or Pet or a Family Member.”
    Yup, otherwise they will be lynched as “Orthodox Hindus take matters into their own hands”. I still fail to see the difference….

    “Why? Isn’t every life precious?”
    This is indeed a complex ethical debate. However, you along with Hindu nationalists are acting on religious beliefs and not ethics. Otherwise why is Cow life more sacred that Buffalo life? Even you agree to hierarchies. It is obvious that human life is more valuable than animal life. Animals should be respected but they do not have human rights. If that were so it would also be illegal to own them as pets since it it forbidden to own humans.

    “Go tell the American a Dog’s life is not worth as much as a Human’s.”
    They would assuredly agree. No one in America considers dogs holy or equal to human life. Killing a stray dog is not a serious crime and street dogs that become dangerous are even culled when it becomes necessary. This is completely different from what you are proposing.Recommend

  • Farha

    “Let Farzi die, I don’t care.”
    Ok, so the court language of all of North India (including the Sikhs) should die. This is as usual hypocrisy from you as you previously claimed that India preserves all languages. Farsi was spoken and written by Ghalib and many other poets so that makes it pretty indigenous. Even the Kashmiri Pundits were very adept at it.

    “Its not a “division”, but an administrative decision to realign”
    It is a compete separate state and was “carved out of the former state of East Punjab”. How is it anything but a division?

    “This has ensured, certain dialects and’ languages are still intact and and most importantly “ALIVE!!”
    It was created for Hindi speakers and its sole official language is Hindi. Are you seriously suggesting that Hindi would have died out? Other languages (which are still considered secondary) could have just as easily been preserved in East-Punjab. Not a satisfactory explanation

    “ML was just another Islamist party, Congress spoke on behalf of all Indians and all Religions and sub-castes.”
    The ML was a Muslim majority party that consistently opposed Islamist parties that were primarily allied with the Congress. See my comment on Husain Ahmad Madani and how he, with the backing of the Congress, repeatedly attacked the ML for not being Islamist. You repeat the same debunked tropes with no evidence to offer.

    The Congress on the other hand liked to make tall claims as you say but received a complete thrashing in the 1945 general elections where the Muslim League won ALL of the constituencies. It fared only marginally better in the 1946 provincial elections primarily due to an alliance with the feudal Unionists in Punjab. So once again the Congress allied with the feudals whom you wrongly claimed the Congress opposed! Following this result, the Congress could no longer claim to represent Muslims and they knew it.

    While the major party, Congress’ performance had been pitiful and the
    entire Muslim vote (as well as a few Dalit leaders as well) had been
    united behind the Muslim League

    The Congress for its part, was primarily a Hindu body. Not only did it alienate Muslims but the Dalits as well. Even Dr Ambedkar, author of India’s constitution claimed that Congress “”was basically a Hindu body which is not very different from Hindu Mahasabha. In view of Ambedkar’s, congress is ‘a body which is Hindu in its composition and is bound to reflect the Hindu mind and Hindu aspiration ’””

    So much for speaking on “behalf of all Indians and all Religions and sub-castes.”

    “Any plan which doesn’t take the inputs of India’s biggest party, with
    proven record of support and which had won elections all over India for
    many years didn’t like the plan and its inputs weren’t respected. This
    was NOT a Democratic plan.”
    Err, do you know how democracy works? Past election victories mean nothing if the party fails to perform in the most recent election. This would be akin to Congress refusing to give BJP their power since they had historically had support. Now this would have been undemocratic and authoritarian. Quite typical since as Ambedkar observed the Congress was a Hindu majoritarian party that cynically allied with feudals and Islamists when it suited them…

    The ML had united the Muslim vote and had just as much a right to decide over the fate of India. In that sense the Cabinet Mission Plan was completely democratic.

    ” if this has to be done, it has to be on our terms, ”
    Ok, and their terms involved more than a million dead so there lies the responsibility does it not? Jinnah was opposed to the partition of Punjab and Bengal as well which Congress forced through.

    “They are different languages.”
    They have similar roots with the very same scripts. English is actually a mixture of old German and French. Brush up on your languages and stop being so ignorant.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_language

    Yes they have evolved far further than Urdu and Hindi but an English speaker can pronounce written French but not understand it. An Urdu speaker can not make any sense of written Hindi and vice-versa.When it comes to writing, they are even more different.

    The point is that languages evolve and eventually dialects become separate languages (as English came from French and German). Both the Indian and Pakistani govt as well as the rest of the world agree on the Urdu language status. Same for Aryan migration which is what it is called (It is very common to refer to it as Invasion by Hinduvta supporters as you just do). You are in the minority on these points.

    “Again an administrative decision to ensure smooth functioning at the Central level. ”
    “The spirit of the decision is smooth functioning of Govt and it is being achieved.”
    Ok, so cultural imperialism is fine when it is done for these purposes? At the end of the day I am right when I say “The Constitution of India designates the official language of the Government of India as Hindi written in the Devanagari”
    So this means you admit that official govt. work for the govt. of India can not be done in Kanaada. Similarly, application for it aside, the passport itself contains only Hindi and English meaning that knowledge of at least one of them is essential. You say you don’t need to know Hindi and yet you do indeed.

    “Congress was actually allying with everyone.”
    “Congress dealing with Majlis doesn’t mean anything.”
    Ok, so at-least you didn’t deny it and this once again shows they cynical nature of the Congress. The Congress was well aware of the Ahrar’s rhetoric and was even supportive of it since it weakened the Ahmadi-aligned ML. Never did it complain of it, so it can only be assumed that they were aligned with them. This means quite a lot and you would not have been so dismissive of such an alliance had the roles been reversed.

    “Not if the said Nation’s identity revolves around Religion”
    Sorry, but this is a dodge. Savarkar could have said that Muslims were outside of the cultural Hindu identity which would have been acceptable, but he went even further by claiming that they were not even Indians and you support this view. Pakistan on the other hand does not consider Ahmadi Muslims or Christians or Hindus to be non-citizens or non-Pakistanis. This is a very big difference.

    “You and many Pakistanis who discriminate against Ahmadis are no better or worse than RSS and Savarkar.”
    I have already elucidated the vast differences between the Hindu fanatical RSS and the relatively secular Muslim majority League (which most Pakistanis supported) in another comment. Pakistanis have never supported the Pakistani version of the RSS i.e the Jamaat-e-Islami and are unlikely to do so in the future so your comparison falls flat. Plus you have also failed to differentiate such discrimination from your own beef-ban proposals. You are only being hypocritical here.

    In any case your comments are hardly insulting since you speak so highly of these Hindu fanatics. From your (not my) perspective, it could even be called praise.

    “You suddently jump to Kingdoms. Weird.”
    The tribal, nomadic and small-scale village-based realms were still kingdoms in a loose sense.

    “Ancient Sanatana Dharma texts that talk about medicine, politics,
    finance and other subjects dont have to carry the burden of being God’s
    words.”
    Ok, but Hindus in the past, as with all religious adherents, took many of the mythical stories found within them very literally. It’s possible to be an atheist in Hinduism but most orthodox Hindus do indeed believe in the existence of various gods or their avatars.

    Similarly, while philosophical, every text is a product of it’s time and like Aristotle and Socrates, there is all sorts of dated stuff in Hindu texts as well. For example, Ayurvedic medicine is at odds on many points with modern day medicine and I”m sure you don’t believe that there are secrets of nuclear energy in the ancient texts as I’ve seen some Hindu nationalists claim.

    ” Aryan Invasion is pure rubbish.”
    Only because it is known as Aryan migration which again did result in a cultural shift. Dismissing it as an “invasion” when nobody claims that anymore is a straw-manning tactic to dismiss the proper argument, similar to how many Christians and Muslims bowdlerize evolution by mischaracterizing it, in order to dismiss it.

    “So,here you were trying to lecture me about my own origins in order to defend the Arabic influence”
    How is this any different from lecturing others on their past? As is known in non-Hinduvta history books, none of the dozens of Muslim rulers were Arab with the exception of Bin Qasim. Urdu too derives primarily from Persian and not Arabic

    It is ironic how you dismiss your opponents as Arabs when one of the most famous Muslim rulers of India was Tipu Sultan, a native of Karnataka! But I’m sure he is a bad native due to the fact that he was a Muslim and I’m sure you disagree with his characterization as a freedom fighter by the Government of Karnataka.Recommend