Gay man thrown off a building: ISIS and TTP, our Frankensteins

Published: February 12, 2015
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The government, prison, and the military share a symbiotic relationship in the propagation of retributive justice. They play upon people’s insecurities and their tendencies to avenge by training them to kill. PHOTO: AFP

As long as we have activists, poets, musicians, artists, writers and entrepreneurs amongst us, we can hold on to the fact that humanity is worth having faith in. PHOTO: AFP The government, prison, and the military share a symbiotic relationship in the propagation of retributive justice. They play upon people’s insecurities and their tendencies to avenge by training them to kill. PHOTO: AFP

I must warn you – there is nothing new to read here. There is nothing here that spells ‘recipe for changing the world’. There are no prescriptions or solutions to the horrors we are witnessing today or have witnessed yesterday.

From our birth to our death, we are in a constant struggle to defeat our own monsters and demons on a daily basis, with silent victories and failures in self-improvement, relationships with family and friends, spiritual and economic prosperity, and learning and taking care of health.

The awareness of how well prepared we are in terms of dealing with the monsters and demons condemning, persecuting and executing innocent lives on a daily basis is likely to become a genetic trait of future generations. They will most definitely know better than us on how to wipe out the forces of evil by their very root. They will know how to identify evil and how to get them regardless of the labels they wear, the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria (ISIS) or the Taliban or the police or the army or the government or whatever-other-evil as to rephrase Shakespeare:

“What’s in a name? Evil by any other name would be same as evil itself.”

Throughout the 35 years of my life, I’m fairly convinced that monsters and demons are created by human beings. We hold immense power over our creations and have an innate tendency of exercising this power with zero accountability. Frankenstein must have been Mary Shelley’s catharsis over mankind’s potential to create monsters and taming them to perform evil acts. It was her work that inspired Karl Marx to write the Communist Manifesto.

The most recent example of Frankenstein’s work today is throwing an innocent man, “framed as a homosexual” off the roof of a building and then stoning him to death, and torching a young Jordanian pilot in a cage and then bulldozing his carcass. While trying to compare the two executions, I questioned fellow queer activist, friend, and writer, Hadi Hussain on how he perceives the two executions, considering that the pilot was a heterosexual man. Would this have happened if one of the ISIS monsters happened to be a homosexual? Why would a homosexual man murder other homosexual people?

He says,

“It’s an ‘if’. ‘If’ they were gay, then their understanding of laws does not permit them to be gay. They could be closeted gays. ISIS could be framing innocent people under the guise of homosexuality to legitimise their murders. They are chopping off lives like vegetables without any discrimination.”

The fact is that same-sex sexual activity was legalised in Iraq in 2003. The same year Saddam’s regime was overthrown. However, neither is there any legal recognition of same-sex couples nor legal recognition of same-sex marriage or surrogacy allowed for gay couples.

“It was the beginning of a terrifying period in Iraq,” recalls Hadi. “There was an exponential rise of the lynch mobs or militias hunting down gay people, arranging meetings with them over the internet and then killing them.”

The murders continue and gays continue to live in fear and many have fled their country. The sickening “emo” murders of 2012 are another fairly recent example of homophobic criminal acts, during which an Iraqi who appeared to be an “emo” was assumed gay and was killed on that pretext by the militia.

Therefore, the truth that needs to be acknowledged and understood is that we are all living at the mercy of the prison and the military industrial complexes. By adopting the system of “retributive justice” as Angela Davis, feminist, activist, and author of Prison Industrial Complex so aptly highlights in her lecture at the University of Chicago in 2013, they have created new forms of evil for mankind to suffer. The government, prison, and the military share a symbiotic relationship in the propagation of retributive justice. They play upon people’s insecurities and their tendencies to avenge by training them to kill, arming them with weapons and leaving a large amount of money behind for their families to sustain their haram livelihoods.

Retributive justice is based on the idea of vengeance from the perspective of the wronged party. According to Merriam Webster, vengeance is defined as “infliction of punishment in return for a wrong committed”. One example to explain how retributive justice works is to read or watch Shakespeare’s Hamlet – where the main goal of the protagonist is to avenge the betrayal of his father by his mother and uncle. Interestingly, Hamlet has recently been adapted to Hindi screens in the form of Haider amidst the controversial political settings of Kashmir by Bollywood filmmaker Vishal Bharadwaj, who is well-known for his earlier adaptations of Shakespeare, namely Omkara (Othello) and Maqbool (MacBeth). Haider was not screened in Pakistan for obvious reasons – Kashmir.

Jealousy, love, lust for power, hate including misogyny, racism, homophobia, transphobia and class-phobia are some of the stereotypical motivators for retributive justice, the so-called “war against terrorism”. Some examples of retributive justice from the perspective of monsters and demons include sectarian hate crimes, persecution on the basis of belonging to another religion, persecution on the basis of gender identity and sexual orientation, incarcerations and death for innocent workers based on laws on terror which come as a bonus with foreign aid.

The main beneficiaries of retributive justice are governments, the police, the armies and terrorist groups, business groups, and political parties. All these groups are inter-connected in the propagation of retributive justice.

The merciless murder of over 150 innocent students and teachers at the Army Public school and college in Peshawar by the evil monsters was no coincidence or unexpected tragedy. Eight months before the attack, when the civil society across Pakistan had taken to the streets to protest against the massacre in Gaza, I clearly recall the zealous praises and support of the protestors for Pakistan army’s operation in FATA and Zarb-e-Azab, which had left hundreds of people dead and millions homeless.

The protest that was organised against military operations didn’t pick its pace as fast it ought to have as compared to the Gaza protests.  

“FATA? The terrorists deserve to die.” screamed one of the protestors for Palestine.

“But these are our own people, we should protest for them too,” I pleaded.

Another protestor argued,

“If we didn’t have an army, we’d pretty much be like Palestine right now, helpless and defenceless.”

This was a rationale I’ve witnessed with some partition survivors who’d migrated to Pakistan. I refused to argue any further.

What also became clear during these protests is that the foundation of Palestine and Pakistan are often conflated with Islamic ideology. No one here understands or is ready to acknowledge that the Palestinian struggle is an issue of Arab nationalism, as activist Leila Khaled explicitly stated in her Skype talk at Café Bol in 2012,

“Not all Arabs are Muslims and Arabic is not the native language of all Muslims.”

Similarly, it is essential to remember that not all “emos” are lesbians, gays, bisexuals or transgenders (LGBT) and not all LGBTs are “emos”. It is also essential to remember that Palestinian LGBT activists have responded aggressively and made it clear that they do not want to be subjected to Israel’s pink-washing propaganda.

There are around 5,000 Palestinian political prisoners in Israeli prisons today whereas there are approximately 99 political prisoners in Pakistani prisons, more than half of them are convicted under the anti-terrorism laws. These political workers are/were a threat to the business interests of the government, the police, the army, the terrorist groups – the monsters and the demons. There are a few monsters in Pakistani prisons convicted for massacre concerning two Ahmadi mosques in Lahore and the Mumbai attacks.

With the death penalty reinstated after the Peshawar massacre, it is a good opportunity for the government to eliminate these numerous imprisoned threats ranging from covering up of the death of innocents in prison to ignoring hunger strikes by imprisoned political workers and the immediate release of the mastermind behind the Mumbai attacks amidst the execution of the monster behind the Ahmadi massacre.

On January 4, 2015, I attended a vigil for Salman Taseer at Liberty Roundabout, Lahore. I was in conversation with a lawyer when I noticed bearded and non-bearded men had started forming a human chain in front of us. Feeling a bit of negative energy emanating from the people in front of us, I asked him,

“Are these people with you? Did you invite them?”

She replied saying,

“No, but if they’re here for support then that’s a good thing I suppose.”

“I suppose,” I repeated after her, not sure whether I agreed.

“Well, they should be the ones promoting peace considering they love to preach so much. It’s about time they take some responsibility for their actions.” I said.

Everyone knows how the story unfolds after that.

Before the mob began to attack the protestors, I had held my poster which said, “Stop killing in the name of religion” right in front of their faces – it was a moment of poetic justice and I felt somewhat accomplished. This poetic justice, no matter how small it may be, is what we all need to work towards.

It has taken five years for the world to acknowledge the legal victory for the transgender community in Pakistan; it is a victory that benefits everyone, which is free from all kinds of retributive elements, and therefore, it truly deserves celebration.

As long as we have activists, poets, musicians, artists, writers and entrepreneurs amongst us, we can hold on to the fact that humanity is worth having faith in.

As Howard Zinn puts it;

“To be hopeful in bad times is not just foolishly romantic. It is based on the fact that human history is a history not only of cruelty, but also of compassion, sacrifice, courage, kindness. What we choose to emphasise in this complex history will determine our lives. If we see only the worst, it destroys our capacity to do something. If we remember those times and places — and there are so many — where people have behaved magnificently, this gives us the energy to act, and at least the possibility of sending this spinning top of a world in a different direction. And if we do act, in however small a way, we don’t have to wait for some grand utopian future. The future is an infinite succession of presents, and to live now as we think human beings should live, in defiance of all that is bad around us, is itself a marvellous victory.”

Fakhra.Hassan

Fakhra Hassan

A self-identified feminist based in Lahore, she is working on completing her first novella and tweets as @fakhraahassan (twitter.com/fakhraahassan)

The views expressed by the writer and the reader comments do not necessarily reflect the views and policies of The Express Tribune.

  • A million dollars to anyone who can condense the central idea of this write up to a couple sentences!

    I appreciate the author’s humanism, but the critical reader inside me is crying tears of blood. Please, for god’s sake, invest in some editorial capacity ET!Recommend

  • http://peddarowdy.wordpress.com/ Anoop

    Two things I liked about the article.
    1) You spoke up for LGBTs. Speaking up for them in a Muslim society is very brave and thank you from another Human Being.

    2) You did not support Pakistani bombing of FATA. I’ve tried to explain bombing is not the solution – even militarily it does not makese sense many times in this forum. Since, I am a liberal and Indian, my comments have been dismissed. Hopefully coming from a Pakistani, it’ll sound better.

    My support to the millions of LGBTs in the Muslim world, who account for 10% of the population.

    After months, I’ve found a Pakistani who has actually condemned the carpet bombing of her own people in FATA.

    Naila, Roon, watch and learn to be better Human Beings.Recommend

  • Maximus Decimus Meridius

    where did you get the 10% stat for gays in muslim community? I tried to find it but could not find a reference. Please copy paste the weblink if you can.Recommend

  • Maximus Decimus Meridius

    where did you get the 10% stat for gays in muslim community? I tried to find it but could not find a reference. Please copy paste the weblink if you can.Recommend

  • https://www.blogger.com/blogger.g?blogID=8559594100366660134#allposts Supriya Arcot

    Appreciate your efforts in tackling tabboo subjects.Recommend

  • https://www.blogger.com/blogger.g?blogID=8559594100366660134#allposts Supriya Arcot

    Appreciate your efforts in tackling tabboo subjects.Recommend

  • Farhan Khan

    in the meantime, your daddy i.e. US is preparing to commit suicide in Syria by sending its troops to get killed by ISIS…Recommend

  • Farhan Khan

    in the meantime, your daddy i.e. US is preparing to commit suicide in Syria by sending its troops to get killed by ISIS…Recommend

  • Farhan Khan

    lolz… sExpress Tribune is becoming a champion of ‘Freedom of Speech’ and is clearly demonstrating this by ‘moderating’ people’s comment… lolzRecommend

  • نائلہ

    This is your comment regarding the peshawar attack and the second is my reply to you. Read it again and then maybe, JUST maybe you may learn that you have extreme hatred and animosity within your heart for Islam and Muslims. Now that’s someone who needs a chip of humanity.

    Secondly, I am in complete support of what the army does and doesn’t do. It is probably the sole organisation which wants a better Pakistan. Yes, I don’t have complete knowledge of the situation on the ground, but neither do YOU.

    You don’t care for Pakistanis Anoop, you don’t care for Muslims either, so don’t even try and act like you do. I have been reading your comments for some time now and know that extremely well. What you are against here is the army. You are also against zarb e azab! How else are we gonna get rid of these militants ah? Have you got a better idea? Then kindly mail it off to our army if you are suddenly so in favour of the people of the country you hate so much.

    Oh and Roon has successfully demolished all your previous claims. Will again, I’m sure :) Recommend

  • نائلہ

    This is your comment regarding the peshawar attack and the second is my reply to you. Read it again and then maybe, JUST maybe you may learn that you have extreme hatred and animosity within your heart for Islam and Muslims. Now that’s someone who needs a chip of humanity.

    Secondly, I am in complete support of what the army does and doesn’t do. It is probably the sole organisation which wants a better Pakistan. Yes, I don’t have complete knowledge of the situation on the ground, but neither do YOU.

    You don’t care for Pakistanis Anoop, you don’t care for Muslims either, so don’t even try and act like you do. I have been reading your comments for some time now and know that extremely well. What you are against here is the army. You are also against zarb e azab! How else are we gonna get rid of these militants ah? Have you got a better idea? Then kindly mail it off to our army if you are suddenly so in favour of the people of the country you hate so much.

    Oh and Roon has successfully demolished all your previous claims. Will again, I’m sure :) Recommend

  • Parvez

    From reading this, which I liked, I realized that you are not just an armchair computer activist …. but an honest-to-God, feet-on-the-ground, in-your-face person doing the right thing. I applaud you…take a bow lady, take a bow.Recommend

  • http://peddarowdy.wordpress.com/ Anoop

    10% is a rough number. Alfred Kinsey wrote that about 10% of the population is Gay.

    But, various studies indicate different number but similar to the 10% figure.

    “A 1993 Janus Report estimated that nine percent of men and five percent of women had more than “occasional” homosexual relationships.”

    http://www.gallup.com/poll/6961/what-percentage-population-gay.aspx

    http://www.nber.org/papers/w19508

    Unless Muslims are of a different species than us rest of the Humans, the findings apply to them as well.Recommend

  • http://peddarowdy.wordpress.com/ Anoop

    Naila,

    Read the comment again. It is Religion which is not allowing the roughly 10% of the population to live freely.

    I am merely protesting against that. It is again Religion which guarantees Peshawar killers will get endless supply of recruits even after the ghastly murders.

    I had warned you that this will happen and it did. I was equally saddened, if not more, for I feel the pain even if an Animal dies for no reason.

    I quote myself: “Be rational and reject these superstitions and learn to speak the truth. Be a guiding light of truth and science to your fellow people in Pakistan.”

    You should be applauding me for sayng this. Only a Religion man/woman cannot see the wisdom of these words.Recommend

  • Me

    Very well said Naila.. I have seen many hateful comments from anoop regarding Islam and Pakistan. Recommend

  • Roon

    “carpet bombing”
    Theres that word again. You use terms without knowing their meanings and and refuse to listen when proven wrong. The blog is also not about the military operation. As said somewhere else, leave it to Anoop to derail the conversation…

    “I am a liberal and Indian”
    You once spoke highly of Hinduvata and support Modi. You call Congress pseudo-liberals but the only psuedo-liberal I see is you…Recommend

  • siesmann

    ISIS only specialize in killing Muslims.(as are Taliban etc).Recommend

  • Roon

    Yay! Even Pakistani liberal Parvez is on our side (judging from the upvote).Recommend

  • Roon

    But your version of religion doesn’t include Hinduism which means you are prejudiced.

    You bring up Peshawar, we can bring up multiple acts of violence from your side like the Gujrat riots, etc. Many other superstitions too like caste system, etc. Yet you refuse to attribute them to Hinduism and religion? There’s a word for such behaviour.

    “You should be applauding me for sayng this.”
    Lol, where do you get such vanity and pride from?Recommend

  • نائلہ

    Parvez is awesome. Recommend

  • نائلہ

    Their hearts are so full of filth it is second nature for them to pass derogatory comments without even realising it. Recommend

  • نائلہ

    Oh yes, religious people have zero sense of what is wisdom and what is not. I’m not even gonna bother. Recommend

  • L.

    “Islam promotes mindless violence and has never had adherents the calibre of Gandhi. Your religion will never let you live in peace. Ok Roon, do you get it? Can you just convert to science already? I could use the commission.”
    Recommend

  • Parvez

    The feeling is mutual…….here’s a box of chocolates for tomorrow
    NB : Read Anoop carefully…..many a time he makes sense.Recommend

  • Maximus Decimus Meridius

    I don’t see ANY mention of muslims there and the Gallup poll is for the USA only. You cannot just survey one type of population and then apply the findings to another. I am quite sure you will object to a survey conducted in Pakistan if the finding is applied to India. But if you do not object please tell me as I am dying to tell you how many Indians support the LEJ.
    Good try at the ten percent btw. Almost got through too, kinda sad that I caught it lolRecommend

  • نائلہ

    Thanks man.

    Yes, I do acknowledge him when he occasionally does.Recommend

  • http://peddarowdy.wordpress.com/ Anoop

    Oh, so you mean Muslims are not actually Humans and are somehow different than people participated in Survey?

    Why take medicines which are tested in America? Ask you hospitals to use only medicines which are tested in Pakistan, especially Cancer ones. They are tested on local population. Not Muslim or Pakistani or Arab.

    There are many Indians who support LeJ. If you can educate me, you are more than welcome. Truth is the truth, there is no reason to hide from it.Recommend

  • http://peddarowdy.wordpress.com/ Anoop

    Carpet bombing is flattening of entire villages. That is why IDPs are running away. Compare this with Drones, which are more precise. There are no IDPs before the carpet bombing started.

    You said Modi gave fiery speeches, incited mobs to kill. I’ve asked you for a simple quote about 11 times now and you are unable to provide. Now, you have the gall to call me names?

    Jinnah can call for Sharia in the Constitution, but Modi cannot call for Hindutva. Muslim League can make Pakistan Islamic Republic and still be secular/non-Religious entity, but even though BJP doesn’t want to change Constitution, you accuse it to be non-secular.

    Hypocrisy.Recommend

  • Roon

    “Hindus don’t even harm an animal”
    Tell that to so many Muslims killed at some of their hands , I don’t think I have to bring up events now.

    “Budhism promotes non-violence”
    Tell that to Muslims in Burma.

    All religions Islam, Hinduism, etc are equally capable of good and evil. Trying to one up each others religion is foolish to say the least.Recommend

  • Maximus Decimus Meridius

    sigh, I will have to educate you Anyway, here goes.
    Surveys carried out about medicine can be considered as valid in a very very wide range of population because ALL humans are from the same species and medicines will have an almost identical impact on them given the conditions are same. For example a ten year old child, who suffers from no allergies and has a good BMI will respond to a medicine in almost identical ways no matter where he lives. You can carry out the survey in Pakistan and the USA may find the survey good. This is about MEDICINES and other things which relate to the body which is identical.
    Next are surveys about beliefs and about preferences, These surveys are carried out to judge a specific demographic or a specific population because perceptions of humans change a lot. People from the USA may find something abhorable but people from India may enjoy it. . Similarly anyone saying that a survey about gay rights carried out in the USA holds the same importance in the South Asia will be laughed, ridiculed and then booted out of the conference room where people will need almost an hour to recover from his hilarious assumption.
    So Todays lesson for anoop is that you should not mix up your surveys. Go to google and read about different kinds of surveys.
    And then you can come back here to admit that you lied about the 10% “fact” and tried to mislead people.Recommend

  • Roon

    “Carpet bombing is flattening of entire villages.”

    I have countered your ridiculous claims before. The IDPs left before the operation began and Pakistan uses smart bombs which are just as accurate as drones. The IDPs are being cared for as we speak by the govt. and army so you don’t need to shed any fake tears for them… Ground operation was necessary eventually. Pakistan agrees to this as does America and India. Your own PM wished Pakistan best of luck in Zarb-e-Azb! Yet Anoop stoops to being an apologist for the Taliban!

    “Modi”
    Lets leave this debate to the other section shall we. Even if (for the sake of argument) Gujrat riots did not happen, the BJP is still a conservative and Hindu nationalist party with links to the RSS.

    How can a person support the Jaamaat-e-Islami and say he is a liberal? Similarly how can a person support the BJP and say he is a liberal? It doesn’t add up…

    “Hypocrisy”
    You really like this word, don’t you, maybe it is a case of:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection

    For example, a person who is rude may constantly accuse other people of being rude. (Same for hypocrisy)Recommend

  • Roon

    Anoops views may be one thing but his hubris is truly out of this world. He dislikes everything about Pakistan from its founders to Shahid Afridi!

    He has extreme right wing views about Islam in line with Hindu-fundamentalists yet somehow calls himself a liberal!Recommend

  • نائلہ

    Shahid afridi?! What did the poor guy do? :/Recommend

  • http://peddarowdy.wordpress.com/ Anoop

    How many Temples has your Army stormed in the last 70 years. How many Mosques like Lal Masjid have they stormed? How Temples are breeding Terrorists in Pakistan? How many Madressas are doing the same?

    Even NYPD monitors Mosques and has spies in them. Why aren’t they that worried about Temples? This is a trend all over the world. Hindus are definitely not subjected to humiliating security checks compared to Muslims.

    There are articles every week about growing Radicalization in Pakistan. Are they talking about Hindus? Or, is it Muslims?

    Seems like Pakistanis are more Islamophobic than any country in the world! Hinduphobia is not even a word, even in Pakistan, where millions live under terrible oppression and fear(a just cause, in any respect, to fight).

    You guys are more scared of Islam than us and you accuse me of bias against Islam!Recommend

  • http://peddarowdy.wordpress.com/ Anoop

    Religion is man made, sure. But, stop generalizing about all Religions.

    The kind of Islamophobia you see in Pakistan is staggering. There is no fear of Hindus or Christians in Pakistan. Temples and Churches are not Terrorist factories. Even your Govt monitors Madressas but not Christian schools. I’ve never seen an article on Dawn or ET imploring Pakistan to shut down Christian schools for the fear of spreading Radicalization.

    Surely, if such things were done in the West, you would accuse it of Islamophobia.

    Considering your own Govt and people fear Islam so much, on what basis are you talking on behalf of ALL Religions?Recommend

  • Roon

    “Even NYPD monitors Mosques and has spies in them.”
    This is actually illegal and America has taken action against it. The intelligence monitoring community in America has been harshly criticized especially after it was revealed that the NSA was spying on American citizens.

    “Hinduphobia is not even a word”
    There is prejudice against Sikhs and Hindus in America though. Indophobia and Pakophobia actually is though. Look up on wikipedia!

    “Hindus are definitely not subjected to humiliating security checks compared to Muslims.”
    All people who look like they have Asian or Middle-Eastern descent are monitored including Indians. How does racial profiling prove anything? Even Europeans have to go through sensors that render them naked to check for bombs.

    It’s funny how you are trying to justify prejudice against Muslims by citing racist actions taken against them…

    Also since you are talking about storming temples, the Sikhs became militant during the storming of the Golden Temple but that does not mean that Sikhism is violent. How can you back up your claims about Islam then?Recommend

  • Roon

    “Islamophobia”
    Yet again you are unable to distinguish between terrorism and hatred/fear of Islam (Islamophobia), just like you were unable to distinguish Taliban murdering 132 children in a few hours and a few children killed accidentally in drone strikes over a period of 10 years, and many more flawed comparisons.Recommend

  • http://peddarowdy.wordpress.com/ Anoop

    Hey I’ve clarified in my blog that I love Shahid Afridi. He is a top class all rounder whose stats speak for itself. Sometimes stats hide the truth, but I’m sure they were due to computer glitches.Recommend

  • http://peddarowdy.wordpress.com/ Anoop

    Dude, your own Govt is not afraid of Hindus. You are trying to compare Hindus and Muslims. You are bombing using “smart bombs” people of FATA, not villages in Sindh where majority Hindus live.

    Sikhism is a peaceful Religion. I admire and respect it. That is why we made a Sikh the PM of our country, to compensate for the terrible things they have been subjected to in the past. Sikh culture is highly celebrated in our movies. Our Cricket team too has its own share of them. We love our Punjabi songs. Our Army chiefs have been Sikhs.

    Why is FBI and NYPD monitoring Mosques? They are illegal, but are resorting to breaking their own laws to spy on Muslims, not Hindus, not Sikhs, not Buddhists. You actually proved what I am saying. They are afraid of Muslims, just like Pakistanis are.

    I’ve proved to you before how 1 in 4 Pakistanis have supported one of the other Terror group. Can you blame me for not distinguishing between a TTP who murder children and those who support such groups?

    Considering the average size of a family is 4, that means one member in every famility is a Terror sympathizer, statistically. You convenietly blame one group, but the sad fact is you are afraid of those 25% of the population, which supports Terrorists too. 25% is a low number, upon normalization the number is much higher!

    Tell me honestly – Aren’t you afraid of these 1 in 4 Pakistanis? If ‘Yes’, then you are as Islamophobic as me.Recommend

  • http://peddarowdy.wordpress.com/ Anoop

    According to a PEW survey there are millions of Pakistanis who support Terror groups. Upon normalizaton the figure will most certainly go beyond 50% of the population supporting one Terror group or another. 1 in 4 is the minimum, I am giving you the benefit of doubt.

    So, how can you distinguish so many millions who support such groups like TTP and TTP themselves?

    TTP cannot exist in an ideological vacuum.

    You must have if you have a Pakistani passport. What is the difference between who have signed such anti-Ahmadi pledges and people who support such groups and TTP themselves?

    You don’t like TTP, but have no problem discriminating against millions of Ahmadis! And, Naila, who is a Ahmadi herself will take your side than mine, who has never discriminted against her in such a way.Recommend

  • http://peddarowdy.wordpress.com/ Anoop

    Do you have a passport? If ‘Yes’, you have actively participated in the discrimination against Ahmadis.

    How are you better than TTP who kill children? There are millions of Pakistanis who do support many Terror groups. 1 in every Pakistani has supported one or the other Terror group in the past.

    Who is fearing whom? Isn’t this fear justified? Shouldn’t I fear you, who has discriminated against Ahmadis, as equally as I fear TTP? How are you NOT hypocrite? In fact I’ve many other words for you.

    I can honestly say I’ve never discriminated against another Human Being. Can YOU say that?Recommend

  • Faraz Talat

    Maximus, those stats apply to all humans. Like if I tell you that the 5-year survival rate for a certain kind of cancer is 20%, you don’t ask, “Yes, but what is the survival rate ‘for Muslims’ specifically?”Recommend

  • http://peddarowdy.wordpress.com/ Anoop

    I’ve proved how ineffectual the operations are. I’ve quoted your Army spokesperson saying most militants ran away after advace notification of intending attack(you have also said now people were warned of the operation).

    I’ve quoted villagers who have had their houses destroyed and had to leave. Smart bombs do that?

    Drones are equipped with Hellfire missiles. Pakistan don’t have them. Pakistan has requested them, but US refused. But, Pakistan thinks Drones are bad publically.

    By giving advance notification, Terrorists simply ran away, merged into the population. This smart bomb thing is real rubbish. When the militants themselves had run away, whats the point in using ANY bomb, smart or not? Couldn’t a ground invasion suffice?

    As the attacks show, TTP still has the capability launch attacks in any part of Pakistan. Jundullah, a TTP group, was recently involved in one.

    What has your bombing of FATA achieve? 1 million IDPs, thousands of innocent lives lost and property.

    Had India bombed Kashmir villages, we would be still hearing about it today. And you claim you are not a hypocrite!

    I support BJP today, just like I supported Manmohan in 2004. I am not married to it. If they goof up, my vote will change. Support is purely tactical and for the benefit of India. Your suppor to ML is very ideological. I support Gandhi and Nehru for their ideology and actions.Recommend

  • Faraz Talat

    Brave, but poorly written.

    The blog is all over the place! Although the author clear means well, It’s the finest example of tangential writing; going from gay Iraqis to FATA to Peshawar to Lahore to Ahmadis to transgenders to Howard Zinn.Recommend

  • http://peddarowdy.wordpress.com/ Anoop

    Being Gay is not a preference, Genius! Its not a lifestyle choice. A Heterosexual cannot change side and vice versa.

    If 10 in 100 people are saying they are Gay, then they haven’t chosen to be Gay. They were born that way!

    You are born Gay! It is something natural and the study results apply accross all populations.

    If there are 10 babies born who turn out to be Gay later on in the US out of 100, the same applies to all of Humanity. Just because it is not acceptable to some societies, the numbers wont really change magically. Nature doesn’t care about societies.

    Being Gay is not a fashion trend or about acceptability. Its about the sexual orientation of an entre species!

    Many animals have exhibited such behavior.

    Your hatred of me has made you blind. I have the entire power of Science and Rational thought to back me up.Recommend

  • Maximus Decimus Meridius

    Which universally accepted study shows that you are born gay?
    Read wikipedia before going into debates
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biology_and_sexual_orientation
    I would also like you to read this blog.
    http://socialinqueery.com/2013/03/18/no-one-is-born-gay-or-straight-here-are-5-reasons-why/Recommend

  • Maximus Decimus Meridius

    Can you present any study which says that sexual preference is biological ONLY?
    I mean you no disrespect, rather I have the UTMOST respect for you. But the truth is that my knowledge is somewhat limited when it comes to medicine. The only reading I have done amounts to no more than a couple of thousand pages. So of course there is a lot which I have not read. therefore I will appreciate it if you can link me to a study which is accepted universally and shows that sexual preference is genetic.
    Again I would like to say that my comment is not meant to deride you, I am just asking for something which I have no knowledge of.Recommend

  • Roon

    “I’ve proved to you before how 1 in 4 Pakistanis have supported one of the other Terror group.”
    You mean the outdated survey that said a majority of Pakistani’s reject Al-Qaeda and Taliban? Playing with statistics won’t prove anything. The number for Al-Qaeda was around 11%. Why not take that as a measure? Instead you take LET’s 22% and round it up to exaggerate.

    “Sikhism is a peaceful Religion.”
    Why did they launch a militarised protest then. You haven’t answered that.

    ” compensate for the terrible things they have been subjected to in the past.”
    I wonder when the same will be done for Muslims?Recommend

  • Roon

    “distinguish so many millions who support such groups like TTP and TTP themselves?”
    The misguided people themselves have commited no crime. They need to be convinced that their support was misplaced. Treating them as if they are terrorists themselves when they have committed no crime (even not hate speech) is absurd.

    You are right that I have a passport that critisizes the Ahmedi faith but based on that you put me in the same group who say that Ahmedis should be killed? This is flawed logic.

    With your logic any Muslim who thinks American foreign policy in the Middle-East has been a failure or any Muslim who is conservative but not fundamentalist is a terrorist?

    Your 1 in 4 conclusion is your own, and you are simply fear-mongering about Muslims. You are either with us or against us is a failed Bush era policy. This is not how extremism will be ended (if you think that it can that is).

    In Pakistan the Army is quite popular (Ashfaq Kayani was voted most popular man in a survey in the tribal areas)
    http://www.terrorfreetomorrow.org/upimagestft/FATApoll1.pdf

    Since the Army is fighting the TTP I could say that most people are opposed to the TTP, especially considering that they have started attacking civilian targets and taking responsibility?

    “TTP cannot exist in an ideological vacuum.”
    Obviously, but radical groups can survive in harsh conditions and with low public support. Public opinion is changeable. For example the Iraq war was relatively popular in America when it began in 2003 but by now few people think it was worthwhile.

    “Naila, who is a Ahmadi herself will take your side than mine”
    Why are you speaking on her behalf then?Recommend

  • Roon

    “By giving advance notification”
    You say why was it given? If it was not given civilians would be caught in the crossfire leading to deaths. America has admitted that the North Waziristan operation has been helpful to them against the Haqqanis.

    Rear Adm. John Kirby, the Pentagon press secretary, said that : “The Pakistan military and the government understand
    the threat, and they continue to go after that threat.”[20][167]
    On 5 November 2014, Lt. Gen. Joseph Anderson, a senior commander for US
    and Nato forces in Afghanistan, said in a Pentagon-hosted video
    briefing from Afghanistan that the Haqqani network is now “fractured”
    like the Taliban. “They are fractured. They are fractured like the
    Taliban is. That’s based pretty much on the Pakistan’s operations in
    North Waziristan this entire summer-fall,” he said, acknowledging the
    effectiveness of Pakistan’s military offensive. “That has very much
    disrupted their efforts in Afghanistan and has caused them to be less
    effective in terms of their ability to pull off an attack in Kabul,”
    Anderson added.

    These are latest developments. There were people who expressed doubt about the OP in the beginning but they are now being cleared.

    The people who act as if no militants and all civilians have been targeted are the militants themselves, which is why as said before you are acting like their apologist.

    Meanwhile in reality:”North Waziristan tribal elders assured their support for Operation
    Zarb-e-Azb, according to a statement released by ISPR director-general Major General Asim Bajwa. “Many tribal elders from around Miranshah, MirAli, Datta Khel assure support to army operation,” Bajwa tweeted. “The tribesmen have assured the army that they would not let the militant to
    return to the area.””

    The TTP has begun attacking back but as General Raheel says the Operation will continue.

    “Had India bombed Kashmir villages”
    No bombs but there have been cases of mass graves and mass rapes in Kashmir by security forces in the past. These are actually worse than bombings since the security forces directly had a role. Also if the Kashmir operation was successful then why are pundits displaced like IDPs in Pak?Recommend

  • Roon

    “How are you better than TTP who kill children?”
    Verbally insulting someone is the same as murdering people? How can the two compare? This logic is like the Charlie Hebdo attackers. You insulted us. It is now justified for us to kill you?

    “Who is fearing whom? Isn’t this fear justified? Shouldn’t I fear you, who has discriminated against Ahmadis, as equally as I fear TTP?”

    So all moderate Muslims should be treated as terror suspects?

    “I can honestly say I’ve never discriminated against another Human Being.”

    Neither have I but my country has as you say. If a man is to be known by his country’s deeds then even if you may have not discriminated, India has and (according to your logic) so have you then.

    ” Shouldn’t I fear you, who has discriminated against Ahmadis”
    Why don’t you ask Naila? First you speak on IDP’s behalf and now you speak on Ahmedis even knowing they are against you? (Naila and Maximus).

    Fear-mongering at its finest.Recommend

  • http://peddarowdy.wordpress.com/ Anoop

    Lol. Tune changed!

    Next you will say Evolution is a lie! There is a 50:50 chance you will do that, but continue to take modern medicines based on theory of Evolution, while they are tested on our closest relatives proving Evolution.

    But, let ME educate you, than @faraztalat:disqus. This is more satisfying and fun! I’m sure he will agree with me again.

    http://www.gaystarnews.com/article/scientists-think-they-have-found-out-why-people-are-born-gay141212

    “Researchers from the National Institute for Mathematical and Biological Synthesis have said the genetics that makes a person more likely to be gay are passed from fathers to daughters and mothers to sons.

    They suggest the answer lies in epigenetics, or how the expression of genes is controlled by ‘temporary switches’, such as how a gene behaves, known as epi-marks. Gender-specific epi-marks are usually ‘erased’ from generation to generation, but when they do not and they pass from a parent to a child, it can result in homosexuality.”

    This is why I keep repeating I am a true liberal. I support the LGBT and actually have not discriminated against anyone or condoned Genocide and murder. You have done this willingly and unwillingly all the the above manyatimes. Getting your passport is the best example.Recommend

  • Maximus Decimus Meridius

    lol a fringe study with a huge margin of error and which is not even tested or confirmed the PEERS of the people who conducted it. If your proofs of evolution are as feeble as this theory, no wonder you cannot get people to accept them. Next time make sure you check, recheck and DOUBLE check your sources before quoting them.
    there is a huge difference between “theorizing” something and then proving it. Evolution has been proven by using skeletons and other features which show that PHYSICAL EVIDENCE exists of evolution, we can see the EFFECTS of evolution.
    What you just quoted is just a theory, and there are a million other theories out there as to what causes homosexuality.
    condones genocide? I did? lol. how getting my passport made me condone genocide only you know. Perhaps another fringe study showed that ? I like meeting people like you who read something on the internet and then go all gaga to others saying that “OH YES this has been proven now”. Learn to rather inculcate a habit of reading and research before debating something like this.
    SIDENOTE. The minute you say that sexual preference is not a persons own “PERSONAL” matter and dictated by his own personal choices you open the door to people theorizing that homosexuality is an illness which can be cured.Tryo imagine the implication of your words before typing them..Recommend

  • http://peddarowdy.wordpress.com/ Anoop

    11% of 180 Million people is 19.8 Million. Thats equal to the entire population of Karachi, your largest City.

    LeT is a UN Blacklisted Terror group. 27% of 180 Million supported it in 2007. Thats 49 Million people. This is larger than most countries in the world.

    You call me of exaggerrating it. Don’t you fear these 20 Million people or 49 Million people?

    Thats a tiny minority of them. It died out pretty quickly. It was unnatural and Rajiv-Benazir deal ensured ISI would not support it. When the external support ceased, Sikh Terror died quickly.

    Considering Indian Army chief have been Sikhs in the past decade alone, its suffice to say Sikhs are trusted by Indians, loyal and honest.

    Muslims have got Pakistan and Bangaldesh, havent they? Pakistan was meant to be their homeland.
    They are ruling Hollywood and are in our Cricket teams(both of which I welcome). There is nothing to make up for.

    They are much safer here than any subcontinental country, especially Pakistan and Bangladesh.Recommend

  • http://peddarowdy.wordpress.com/ Anoop

    You did not just verbally abuse them – you disrespected them, stripped them off of their identity, supported and agreed with the fanatics by signing it. You have done much more than everyday abuse. You have become part of the system which discriminates against them, which kills them, which disallows them to call themselves whatever they want to.

    Charlie Hebdo by defying Islamists has done exactly opposite. They are not calling for murder or harm. They are just defying Religious puritanicalism.

    After doing such ghastly things, how can you call yourself Moderate, I don’t understand. This is the same mind which condones Muslim League’s responsiblity in Direct Action.

    Naila, being an Ahmadi, in our conversations, has expressed her displeasure and utter sadness of this, when I pointed out Pakistanis do this to her willingly and without protest. You who gang up with her, against me, have signed a demeaning and disgusting document AGAINST her, while I am fighting for her rights.

    Look at the irony. I am a true liberal, I will remain so.Recommend

  • http://peddarowdy.wordpress.com/ Anoop

    Consenting discrimination against anyone is horrible, by my standards. If one is uneducated, it is forgiven, but you, I am sure, are a graduate, who was completely aware of what he was doing. You give consent to that ghastly pledge willingly and come here and claim its no big deal?

    A guy who has no problem consenting discrimination against another Relgious/Ethnic group is only one step behind those actually disciminating.

    TTP not only exists. Another bunch of Shias were killed yesterday. Wagah attack, attack on the school are all symptoms of a corrupt, inhuman society whose people sign any documentation dooming anyone else as long as they are benefitted.

    The funny thing is those very people try to convince the good folks that what they have done is no big deal and didn’t mean harm. How can you live with yourself?

    I am talking behalf of Naila, for her, yes. I am also talking behalf of humanity, on behalf of Ahmadis. You condemn her beliefs and her people by signing on a piece of document, but are offended I speak up for her?Recommend

  • http://peddarowdy.wordpress.com/ Anoop

    America has said, yes. But, it doesn’t care about the people of FATA. I do.

    America will NEVER EVER bomb its own citizens, inspite of having the best of weapons. They will never use their territory to fund proxy wars on neighbours. Pakistan has and will.

    In fact, many in India welcome FATA operations. Why? Because they don’t care about how many die or become homeless. You don’t consider them your people. Just like you consider Ahmadis your people and signed an anti-Ahmadi document.

    You have made this war your own now. America wants to get out and this operations helps. India is happy too, as it sees Pakistan talking to Afghan civilians whom India is comfortable with.

    How can you guys bomb your own people? India has never used bombs, smart or not, against Maoists, or Kashmiris, or whoever, who is considered an Indian citizen. But, you guys don’t value such things.

    Why would anyone bomb a territory when Terrorists have simply ran away after advance notification, is beyond my logic. I guess it makes sense to you.Recommend

  • http://peddarowdy.wordpress.com/ Anoop

    Change your nameRecommend

  • Sacred

    You know, I really don’t understand our species. On one hand we have done great things such as land a Human on our planet Earth’s Moon, land a robotic rover on a rapidly moving comet, eradicate many diseases and understand how our Universe functions to a great extent to name just a few. And on the other hand we can savagely murder, rape and destroy the lives of our fellow men and women in massive numbers and in barbarically ruthless ways for little to no real legitimate reason.Recommend

  • Roon

    “But, it doesn’t care about the people of FATA. I do.”
    Pakistan is providing for the people of FATA and America is a major aid provider.

    The entire world has cared about the massacares in Syria and Iraq as well as in other places. Not in Pakistan because circumstances are different. The tribals do support the operation as sourced above.

    Pakistan has also sent in ground forces which you ignore. If all the terrorists ran away why would America applaud and say Haqqanis have been disrupted?

    “Kashmiris”
    As said before rape and mass graves (of the 1990’s) are worse than collateral damage.Recommend

  • Roon

    “TTP not only exists. Another bunch of Shias were killed yesterday. Wagah attack”
    Yes and as they have mentioned it is for revenge for the operation against them (the one which you say has not harmed them).

    “I am talking behalf of Naila”
    She herself doesn’t feel so herself so how can you speak on her behalf. Technically speaking every persons beliefs insults other people. Jews don’t accept Jesus, Christians don’t accept Muhammad, Muslims don’t accept idol worshiping. What is wrong in accepting this fact?

    The passport document says that the Ahmedi prophet is a fraud if you consider yourself a Muslim in Pak. The wording is quite harsh but I don’t really see how it ties in with the TTP. Don’t you believe that Abrahamic prophets are frauds too?

    Then you too are discriminating when you say you are a Hindu or Atheist. I don’t really care what you think considering you think eating beef is discrimination against Hindus and other such nonsense.Recommend

  • Roon

    ” You have become part of the system which discriminates against them, which kills them”

    Are you not part of the system which murdered Muslims in Gujrat and Kashmir too? Sikhs too, recompense is futile considering the pain they went through. It really is amusing how hard you are trying to guilt trip me. I could go on saying:

    “You have done much more than everyday abuse. You have become part of the system which discriminates against them (Muslims), which kills them.”

    I condemn violence against Ahmedis and don’t blame them for the violence inflicted upon them (unlike you who thinks that Gujrat riots were justified retaliation for a train burning whose cause is still unclear). Who is the hypocrite here?

    “Charlie Hebdo by defying Islamists has done exactly opposite. ”
    I have said same mentality as the ” Charlie Hebdo attackers” (i.e the gunmen). I was criticizing the gunmen, not the cartoon publishers.
    Iqra!

    “I am a true liberal”
    This is the third time you have said this. I find that people who repeatedly have to emphasize what they are, whether they are “true” Muslims or “true” liberals rarely are what they say..Recommend

  • Roon

    “Considering Indian Army chief have been Sikhs in the past”

    No matter what you do, the past will never go away, the Sikhs still look upon the Temple storming as a black day. I’m sure that many Sikhs feel that Indra Gandhi’s assassination was justified.

    After all her body guard was trustworthy too no? But enough of this, I don’t really care for the Sikhs in India but as you mentioned:

    “When the external support ceased, Sikh Terror died quickly.”
    An important point as Saudi Arabia still finds Whahabi thought and US funded Islamists during the cold war which is when they organised. Just like the Sikhs, Islamist terror will go away when the funding stops and dries up. Or is this a different kind of terror?Recommend

  • http://peddarowdy.wordpress.com/ Anoop

    The very fact that a Homosexual person cannot be counseled into becoming heterosexual is an indication to my original hypothesis that people are born that way. Its not even my hypothesis, but of scientists, psychologists, sociologists.

    There is a lot of indication about genes influencing Homosexuality.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/11/17/genetic-link-male-homosexuality_n_6171244.html

    http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg22429963.700-gay-gene-discovery-has-good-and-bad-implications.html#.VOa0O0KJnzI

    http://www.iflscience.com/brain/case-builds-genetic-influence-sexuality

    On the other hand, you have provided no studies that Psychological, environmental or social factors can influence a child to turn gay. I at least quoted a few scientists and some studies.

    Considering Homosexuality is seen in Animals it is a part of nature. Go tell a Gay Horse that he was not born that way..

    Dude, I am pro-Gay. Its NOT an Illness. Its as natural as my nephew being left handed, even though his mother and father are right handed.

    I based my “10%” comment on things I’ve read before. it is you who challenged it. I even proved my assertion that it is considered 10% of the population is considered Gay.

    Can you prove that 10% of the population is NOT gay? If you can’t then better bow out with some modicum of respect.Recommend

  • Maximus Decimus Meridius

    Did you read your own links? Iflscience says that there are no conclusive results. Go figure lolRecommend

  • http://peddarowdy.wordpress.com/ Anoop

    Islamic Terror is nothing new. Ask the Zoarastrians. Or, Tipu Sultan and his conversion spree.

    Saudi Arabia is not funding TTP, is it. Yet it exists. Did it ask ZAB to call Ahmadis non-Muslims?
    What about all those Europeans joining ISIS?
    What does Saudia have to do with them?

    Sikhism is intrinsicially non-violent. Their history has proved it. Nor do Hindus consider them to be so. Whatever happened was political and when the cause was neutralized, so was Sikh Terror.

    Saudia did have a hand, but that only part of the story.Recommend

  • http://peddarowdy.wordpress.com/ Anoop

    America has ignored Bangladesh genocide where far more number were killed. Doesn’t mean it is justified is it?
    They caring or not caring is immaterial. The matter of fact is you are bombing your own people, even after, as you claim, Terrorists had evacuated after advance warning, when there was no need for any bombing.
    Pakistani ground forces a large chunk of it is deployed on the LoC. That is one of the reasons why people of FATA were bombed.
    The casualty in Kashmir since 1989, over 25 years, is less than the number of people killed in 9 months in Bangladesh in 1971 or the number killed in the past 10 years in FATA by TTP and their creators.
    Kashmir is getting more Tourists than entire country of Pakistan. I bet even after 20 years, even Pakistanis will fear venturing into FATA.Recommend

  • Roon

    ” Ask the Zoarastrians. Or, Tipu Sultan and his conversion spree.”

    These were medieval acts. The Crusaders were brutal but not terrorists and neither were the Ghazis. Terrorism is a modern phenomena. Hindu Rajputs often raided each other. Was this Hindu terror?

    Your analogies are absurd as usual going all over time from 1200AD to 2000AD. Stick to the modern era. Not a time when caste system and Suttee was rampant.Recommend

  • Roon

    “Pakistanis will fear venturing into FATA.”

    Tourism is starting again in Swat and Naran, Kaghan. All you can do is bet with nothing to offer.

    “Terrorists had evacuated after advance warning”
    I have quoted American sources that say many terrorists have been killed and yet you choose to deny as usual?

    “They are fractured. They are fractured like the
    Taliban is. That’s based pretty much on the Pakistan’s operations in North Waziristan this entire summer-fall,”

    PleaseRecommend

  • http://peddarowdy.wordpress.com/ Anoop

    Direct Action day riots, anti-Ahmadi laws, Blasphemy Laws, happened before 9/11 right in Pakistan.

    Christianity is very similar to Islam. It does have a bloody history, just like Islam. It has reformed only recently. I am not calling Mughals fighting with another as Religious violence. Your comparison of Hindu Rajputs in disingenous, designed to throw one off track.

    Don’t Tipu Sultan’s mass conversions count? Why not? You say Terror is a modern phenomena and in the very next sentence, say stick to modern era. I’ve given examples of both eras. People cherry pick sentences, but you are cherry picking entire eras!Recommend

  • http://peddarowdy.wordpress.com/ Anoop

    She is reading all this and she doesn’t mnd. Also, you can’t ask me stop speaking on behalf of all Ahmadis, on behalf of basic Human emotions.

    How can a guy who can sign such inhumane pledges understand this? Germans didn’t sanctions the treatment of Jews, they had no idea what was hapenning in concentration camps. When they found out, they held themselves responsible. But, you know what is happening and has happened and yet signed the document. How are you different than a Nazi supporter?

    I believe that Religion itself is a lie and some dangerous. But, I’d not stoop to discrimination or condoning discrimination.

    You have definitely shown you don’t care when you signed that shameful, disgusting document.Recommend

  • Roon

    ” How are you different than a Nazi supporter?”

    As I said you are no different when you show indeifference to Kashmiri and Muslim persecution and choose to focus on Pakistan IDP and minorities. Hypocrisy at its finest.Recommend

  • Roon

    Just to make it clear, I do believe that the state should not decide who is a Muslim and who is not and that the passport requirements should change.

    However this coming from an Indian who calls himself a “liberal” but supports Hinduvata, ridicules (and fears) Muslims but defends extremist Hindus at every possibility is just pure Hypocrisy.

    You make an appeal to emotion and guilt but are unwilling to hold such standards to yourself. Truly shameful.Recommend

  • Roon

    “Don’t Tipu Sultan’s mass conversions count?”

    Why don’t Hindu Rajput raiding count?
    Don’t Gujrat riots count?
    Don’t Babri Masjid demolition count?
    Don’t Buddhist persecution by ancient Indian kingdoms count?
    Do you know how many people died in Asoka’s invasion of Kalinga?

    Based on this I could say this is “Hindu terror” from both eras.

    You are the one trowing people off track. Hinduism has a bloody history too with Sutee and Caste system not just Christianity and Islam. Wake up, your own ancestors weren’t saints and indeed neither were we.Recommend

  • http://peddarowdy.wordpress.com/ Anoop

    Oh, Rajputs raided each other and others with the conviction to spread Hinduism! I did not know that. Did they teach that to you in your History books?
    Babri Masjid was demolished for the same reasons? Here I thought it was to correct a historical wrong of Islamic invaders destroying a Ram Temple on the grounds Hindus consider their lord was born.
    Wasn’t Gujarat riots started after Hindu karsevaks were set on fire in a train next to a Muslim majority town – Godhra?
    Oh! Asoka’s conquest of Kalinga was to spread Hinduism! I wonder why he converted to Buddhism after that.
    Hinduism’s bloody history and even present is undeniable. But, compared to Islam, it is far less. The present is a great indicator. Although there is injustice, compared to the Muslim societies it is far less. non-Muslims and Muslims from Pakistan are moving to India, but apart from Terrorists like Dawood Ibrahim, nobody wants to go to Pakistan. I read in ET today Adnan Sami wants to apply for the 2nd time for an Indian Citizenship.
    Had you given the examples of persecution of lower castes, I’d have agreed wholeheartedly. Sati was a great stain, which has been reversed. It takes tolerance to take corrective action and Hinduism has done that.
    If Hinduism so violent, why is your own Govt not targetting Hindus and Temples the way they are targetting Muslims and Mosques? Looks like your own Govt doesn’t agree with you.Recommend

  • http://peddarowdy.wordpress.com/ Anoop

    I support the minorities in Kashmi – Kashmiri Pandits. I speak for their rights. Highlight your hypocricy in you ignoring their plight, like right now. You support the majority – Muslims(to be accurate Islamists in the majority community).
    While I support Democracy and Free Thought, you support Islamic Terror in Kashmir. I am morally and ethically supporting the minorities of Kashmir, the voiceless. I support the democratic right of every Kashmiri, including and especally Muslims. I am proud so many Kashmiris voted for Democracy with 70% participation in elections.
    Unlike you I will never deny the right of a Muslim to call himself a Muslim. I will tear any document to shreds which makes me a bigot and is discriminatory, nor will my Consitution allow such abomination.Recommend

  • Roon

    “Oh! Asoka’s conquest of Kalinga was to spread Hinduism”
    Dude Kalinga was a Jain kingdom! Asoka was pretty brutal before his conversion to Buddhism.

    “He built Ashoka’s Hell, an elaborate torture chamber
    described as a “Paradisal Hell” due to the contrast between its
    beautiful exterior and the acts carried out within by his appointed
    executioner, Girikaa.[12] This earned him the name of Chanda Ashoka (Caṇḍa Aśoka) meaning “Ashoka the Fierce” in Sanskrit. ”

    ” correct a historical wrong of Islamic invaders destroying a Ram Temple on the grounds Hindus consider their lord was born.”
    You are justifying the destruction? Excuses, excuses.

    If you can say Asoka’s wars were for political motive then so were Ghaznavi’s, Bin Qasims and Tipu Sultans too. They were also interested in land and conquest.

    “If Hinduism so violent”
    Never have I claimed that, simply that religions are not so different from each other. If you are an atheist you should be agreeing?Recommend

  • Roon

    “ethically supporting the minorities of Kashmir, the voiceless”
    Sure, what about the plight of thousands of (mostly Muslim) Kashmiris who have suffered at the hands of the Indian army?

    You try to take the moral high ground but it really looks quite hypocritical when it is also seen that you offer excuses for Gujrat riots, Babari demolition, partition violence from Hindus, ethinc cleansing of Muslims in UP and Bihar in 1946, etc. You have already discriminated against Muslims by doing this and your morals and constitution (for post 1947 events) did not prevent it..

    Recommend

  • http://peddarowdy.wordpress.com/ Anoop

    Jainism is an offshoot of Hinduism. I studied in a Jain school. I follow the Jain principles.

    Asoka’s reign of Terror was for power. Just like Mughals who fought between themselves, there is no Religious angle to it.

    Kalinga was a part of Magadha once, till it declared Independence. Asoka was trying to get it back under his control. I haven’t read anywhere the intention was to convert or carry a Hindu version of Jihad. Asoka after converting never claimed his was a Religious cause. But, Tipu Sultan has. Yet, in your mind they both are equivalent.

    Tipu Sultan not only took over territories, he resorted to forced conversion and bragged about it. How many Temples have been destroyed by the invading marauders like Ghaznavi? Where is the Ram Temple in the holy city of Ayhodhya? How is this not Religious violence?

    You twist History to win a silly argument! For a man who has signed an anti-Ahmadi pledge, this must be routine.

    I don’t think all Religions are the same, even though I think they are pieces of fiction. Even though there are more Hindus in the Indian Subcontinent, Islamic Terror is far more common than any Hindutva violence. Your biggest example is Gujarat riots, even that was started by you-know-who.

    Hindus in Pakistan is the same number as Muslims in UK or France. But, in terms of violence, the Hindus are non-violent, pacifist beings, while in UK and France.. Well, you can gather the rest.

    Not all Religions are the same. Different Religions have different ideas, which in turn exert different influence over its members.

    If they are same, why isn’t your Govt targetting any Temples. I read yesterday X number of Mosques and Madressahs were deemed “sensitive”. I didn’t read anything about Temples being considered “sensitive”.

    Dude, convince your own Govt first. Tell them not to fear Islam or to fear Hindus in Pakistan equally. Later is just a waste of time, you and me know that. Yet, you want to insist Hindus equals Muslims. Hinduism equals Islam. Recommend

  • http://peddarowdy.wordpress.com/ Anoop

    Pakistan has shown fighting an insurgency is a bloody affair. In 1971 it has killed 3 Million Bengalis in 9 short months. In Balochistan, we have seen the same tactics used by India and worse. In FATA, we have seen Pakistani Military bombarding innocent villagers after giving advance warning(after which Terrorists simply ran away).

    Fighting an insurgency is tough, there will be cries of Human Rights abuses. In 25 years of insurgency, the casualty rate is much lower than 3 Million dead which Pakistan accomplished in 9 short months. Even in Sri Lanka, hundreds of thousands died in a fight with LTTE.

    If Pakistan leads the way of fighting an insurgency with zero casualties and collateral damage or at least causes less collateral damage than India, I’ll agree India is in the wrong.

    If you can support Direct Action day and absolve Muslim League, why can’t I do the same with Gujarat riots(which really was started by Muslims of Godhra, not BJP) and absolve BJP? You lied and said Modi gave speeches to incite mobs, till date you have not provided that. Where is the quote? I ask for the tenth time.

    My Constitution is a moral guide. It controls Law making and ensures separation of different branches of Govt. I don’t think you understand what a Constitution is for.Recommend

  • Roon

    Where is the quote?
    I am tired of linking wikipedia now. You call everyone who says Modi made inflammatory marks liars?

    “Direct Action day”
    This happened during tensions in British India and many Muslims if not more died.

    Gujrat happened after independence and the death count was almost exclusively Muslim.

    I have shown how you twist Jinnah’s words to make a peaceful protest seem violent while accuse neutral sources of lying when they prove that Modi made inflamatory remarks and encouraged violence against Muslims from behind the scenes.

    I have also shown America admit terrorists being killed but you maintain “Terrorists simply ran away” and also how Pak is caring for IDP’s. It really is pointless to argue with you when you simply ignore others proofs…Recommend

  • Roon

    “I studied in a Jain school”

    Is this relevant? I have family who have studied in a Christian missionary school.

    “Asoka’s reign of Terror was for power”
    True, but its always about power. Does having a religious slant make massacres worse? Tipu Sahib also only fought against his enemies for power and later re-conciliated with them when the British became a greater threat.

    Ranjit Singh was a tolerant Sikh ruler too but it is on record that he converted some mosques into stables and had a role in Muslim persecution. Condemnable but I don’t consider him a bigot and neither do I Tipu.

    The examples I quoted were only a few. Here is one in detail.

    Persecution of Muslims by a Hindu ruler:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dogra_dynasty#Persecution_of_Muslims_by_Dogras

    Muslims massacred and their women sold as slaves? And this is in 1837 rather than the medieval Ghaznavids!

    The Muslims have mostly been militarily advantageous in the subcontinent in the past. If we had not been there would probably have been many other persecutions like this at the hand of Hindu rulers.

    “If they are same, why isn’t your Govt targetting any Temples.”
    You are mixing religious arguments with political ones. Islamic extremists were armed by the West and admittedly Pakistan to fight the Soviets. There were no Hindus armed and there are no Hindu lands under occupation by non-Hindus like Palestine. This does increase fundamentalism in the Muslim world. If it were done with Hindus the results would have been the same. Hindus have been violent in the past no?

    “I don’t think all Religions are the same”
    “Not all Religions are the same”
    Things only a religious supremest would claim…

    It seems that you only like to cling to labels such as atheist and liberal because they are looked up to. But you really have nothing in common with either. An atheist should view all religions impartially and a liberal should be tolerant. You fail on both counts…Recommend

  • http://peddarowdy.wordpress.com/ Anoop

    Tipu Sultan was proud of his forced conversion, after the wars were won. If the intention was purely military, he would have stopped after winning. Not force people to convert.

    I am never claiming Hindus and Sikhs never fought back. I am quite proud that we did fight back. I am not even denying there were real nutcase kings. Ancient India was still ancient.

    What I am trying to show is there is a history of Islamic prosecution of non-Muslims and linking with today. Not just persecution, the emphasis was Religious domination and conversion! You see this in all Muslim societies, even in countries like India, US and UK.

    At Partition, Hindus had an advantage, but we did give equal status to Muslim in our Constitution. While Pakistan was made to be an Islamic state. You can see this trend all over the world. What you claim is a lie. Hindus have been dominant in India and number of Muslims has actually increased faster than the rest of the population. When Muslims have the advantage, you see minority numbers going down.

    Comparatively, Hindus and Sikhs have been very peaceful in all environments. Even in India and Pakistan.

    I never claimed to be an Atheist. I have defended Atheists. Since, I am seeing Religions for their own merit and not claim all are same, I am actually right.

    Learn to walk the talk, by removing Islamophobia from Pakistan.Recommend

  • http://peddarowdy.wordpress.com/ Anoop

    There are no Modi quotes in those links. You have said Modi incited mobs during and before the riots. Where is the quote which shows that?

    You have shown convenient media links, not once where Modi was let off my courts citing lack of evidence. If there were such quotes, courts would have not given him a clean chit.

    I know you can’t provide those quotes. It doesn’t exist. All you do it claim. Better quote or take back your word.

    You claim Modi made inflammatory speeches but don’t have the conviction to back it up! A quote is all I ask for, not links, not empty claims. Quotes. Irrefutable evidence.

    I’ve provided WSJ links where your own military says Terrorists ran away. Which is true since TTP top brass relocated to Afghanistan. Isn’t this proof enough?Recommend

  • Roon

    “convenient media links”
    (Sigh) Here you are again accusing the media of lying?

    “I’ve provided WSJ links where your own military says Terrorists ran away”
    This was in the early days of operation when there was skepticism. My quotes by American generals are more recent.Recommend