The day the Great Army split: When Hindus and Muslims were one

Published: September 6, 2013
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“We have been brothers. We will always remain brothers. And we shall never forget the great years we have lived together.”

It’s hard to imagine that the brave soldiers of the India and Pakistan army who have been baying for each other’s blood since 1947 had earlier been comrades; that they are the same young men who once spilled their blood together in many a battle they fought flanked by their brothers and in the course of World War II in Italy, the Western Desert and Burma.

These are the same brave-hearts who fought together almost incessantly along the passes and peaks of the Frontier, at Landi Kotal, and up and down the Khyber while their British colleagues paraded and drilled. The Pathans like the cruel Wazirs and Mahsouds, who finished off their wounded prisoners with their knives, were not an easy enemy to deal with.

It’s difficult to fathom that these are the same doughty soldiers who, once on a leave after their gruelling Frontier campaigns, led their life with style and panache back in their quarters. They went off together to hunt panthers and tigers in the jungles of Central India, the snow leopard, ibex and black bear in the foothills of the Himalayas and they fished the tenacious mahseer from the quick-flowing streams of Kashmir.

These were the same chaps, who once upon a time, enjoyed each other’s success. Alas, so much has changed since partition; three wars, thousands of soldiers martyred, incessant skirmishes at the Line of Control (LoC), beheadings and what not.

Today, a brother is fighting against his own brother and spilling his blood at will; all those great years of brotherhood and friendship they shared together have been conveniently forgotten just because 66 years ago our ‘great’ leaders thought it fit to separate us.

But brothers will always remain brothers no matter how much they fight amongst each other.

Today, as I write this blog, my mind dwells upon the last moments the Hindu, Muslim, and Sikh soldiers of the British Indian army shared together on the eve of partition. Dominique Lapierre and Larry Collins in their book ‘Freedom at Midnight’ offer a poignant account of the moving farewell these comrades bid to each other.

On August 13, 1947, the authors write, in barracks, cantonments and along military lines, Hindu, Sikh, and Muslim soldiers of the great army, being sliced in two along with the sub-continent it had served, paid a last homage to one another.

In Delhi, the troops of the Sikh and Dogra squadrons of Probyn’s Horse, one of the army’s legendary old cavalry regiments, offered a gigantic banquet to the men of the departing Muslim squadron. They savoured together on an open parade ground a final feast of mountains of steaming rice, chicken curry, lamb kebab and the regiment’s traditional pudding, rice baked with caramel, cinnamon and almonds. When it was over, Sikh, Muslim and Hindu joined hands and danced a last bhangra, a wild, swirling farandole climaxing the most moving evening in their regiment’s history.

According to the authors, the Muslim regiments in the areas which would fall to Pakistan, offered similar banquets to their Sikh and Hindu comrades leaving for India. In Rawalpindi, the Second Cavalry gave an enormous barkana, a ‘good luck’ banquet to their former comrades. Every Sikh and Hindu officer spoke, often with tears in his eyes, to bid farewell to the Muslim colonel, Mohammed Idriss, who’d led them through some of the bitterest fighting of World War II.

“Wherever you go,” said Idriss in reply, “We shall always remain brothers because we spilled our blood together.”

Idriss then cancelled the order he’d received from the headquarters of the future Pakistan Army insisting that all departing Indian troops turn in their weapons before leaving.

“These men are soldiers,” he said, “They came here with their arms. They will leave with them.”

The next morning those soldiers who’d served under his command owed their lives to his last intervention on their behalf. An hour out of Rawalpindi, the train bearing the Sikhs and Hindus of the Second Cavalry was ambushed by Muslim League National Guardsmen. Without their arms they would have been massacred.

The most touching farewell of all, as per the authors, took place on the lawns and in the grand ballroom of an institution that once had been one of the most privileged sanctuaries of India’s British rulers, the Imperial Delhi Gymkhana Club. Invitation was by engraved cards sent by ‘The Officers of the Armed Forces of the Dominion of India’ inviting guests to a ‘Farewell to Old Comrades Reception in Honour of the Officers of the Armed Forces of the Dominion of Pakistan.’

An air of overwhelming sadness and unreality overlaid the evening, one Indian remembered. They talked and drank in the bar, telling the old stories one last time – the stories of the mess, of the desert, of the jungles of Burma, of the raids against their own countrymen on the frontier, the ordeals and pleasures of entire careers spent together in that special fraternity of the uniform and shared danger.

None of those men, the authors write, could envisage on that nostalgic evening the tragic role into which they would soon be cast. Instead, it was arms around each other’s shoulders and boisterous cries of:

“We’ll be down for pig-sticking in September”

“Don’t forget the polo in Lahore”

And,

“We must go after that ibex we missed in Kashmir last year”.

When the time came to end the evening, Brigadier Cariappa, a Hindu, climbed to the raised dance platform and called for silence.

“We are here to say au revoir and only au revoir, because we shall meet again in the same spirit of friendship that has always bound us together,” he said. “We have shared a common destiny so long that our history is inseparable.”

He reviewed their experience together, and then concluded:

“We have been brothers. We will always remain brothers. And we shall never forget the great years we have lived together.”

Yes, we won’t forget and no matter what happens we will always remain brothers. That day is not far when we shall meet again in the same spirit of friendship that has always bound us together.

Sapan Kapoor

Sapan Kapoor

A history buff and India-based journalist, the author has worked with the Press Trust of India. He blogs at sehar-anawakening.blogspot.in/ and tweets as @dRaconteur.

The views expressed by the writer and the reader comments do not necessarily reflect the views and policies of The Express Tribune.

  • Rational

    True, we will always remain brothers.Recommend

  • Dr.N.Khatoon

    I knew that they fought together in Burma…but Italy is news to me.
    The Brigadier you refer to is Field Marshal Cariappa,the famous Coorgi ? My husband got an award from him,when he was a little boy at a school function,as a chief guest.
    A very different article and a unique look at those times.
    I enjoyed Dominique Lapierre’s ‘City of Joy’..will certainly look this one up too.
    Nice article.Recommend

  • Shakir Lakhani

    “That day is not far when we shall meet again in the same spirit of friendship that has always bound us together”. Let’s hope it happens in my lifetime, although I doubt it.Recommend

  • I am a Khan

    I appreciate your sentiment, but the Indian Commenters of ET tell a different story. They show their extreme hatred for Islam and Muslims. How many hindus will call a practicing muslim as their brother? How many hindus will call Dr Zakir Naik (a practicing muslim and an Indian) as their brother? Dr Naik calls every human being as his brother/sister…Recommend

  • Naveen

    K M Cariappa, in particular, was too close to some Pak Army officers. For instance, In 1958, when Pak Army officers with whom he had served in British Indian Army staged the coup in Pakistan, he visited Pakistan and publicly praised the two ‘patriotic’ Generals for saving their homeland from ‘utter ruination’ by imposing Martial Law. Similarly in 1965 War, when Cariappa’s son was taken PoW by Pak Army, Ayub Khan informed Cariappa that he would not keep his son in the ordinary PoW Camp as they had worked together before Independence (Cariappa, being a professional officer, however, politely declined Ayub’s generous offer saying he could not request special privileges for only one, every soldier out there was like his son).Recommend

  • Bharat

    @I am a khan, I will call every Pakistani and Indian muslim my brother. You’re my bhai. RegardsRecommend

  • Stranger

    Sniff .A very touching article indeed. I am not from Pak. I often wonder why at all we split 7 decades back. s i g h .Recommend

  • Secular

    @I am a Khan:
    How many muslims can first accept that non-muslims have a right to follow their religion.
    Will you give Ahmmadiyyas the freedom of religion or will you accept Shias as your brethen ?
    Or will you allow Christians, Jews and Hindus to live as your neighbours ?
    Now most likely your answer is big no for all of it. Then you it is better you don’t talk about non-muslims not treating muslims as brothers.Recommend

  • rohan

    @I am a Khan:
    Don’t confuse Indians with paid BJP Media bots :)
    Believe me ,we are as ashamed of them ,as anyone .
    I am not denying their there is no ill will or shared feelings of injustices among us both Khan Sahib ,but its often seen that only brothers are capable of such a mindless feud ,as our nations have .
    Afterall ,we are mirror copies of each other ,that’s why none of us even tries to look at things from others perspective ,because as old brothers ,we presume …that we know .

    But please spare me the rhetoric over Muslims not respected in India and all that ,its only recently that you are getting this taste out of India ,we have been listening from centuries how Hindus are unworthy and all that .(This is evident even in how we discourse ,Muslim elders are still called Mian sahib and all other epitaphs ,ever heard how you/your public discourse refers to hindus as ?all are Lala for you and baniyas ) .Anyway i do realize ,the sense of victimization will never leave the discourse in Pakistan ..whatever . Recommend

  • Sry

    Great blog, amidst the hatemongering of certain Pakistanis and Indians, good to see that some of us know our history. Nothing better than some subcontinental solidarity. Really goes to show the cruelty that is Indo-Pak conflict, we are one people and yet our state fills us with contempt for one another, we are programmed such that we are happy to see our own brothers killed, and are jealous of each others’ success. Recommend

  • http://India Feroz

    Today soldiers are used as cannon fodder for dubious purposes and unachievable goals. Professionalism in the profession is dead.Recommend

  • B

    @ I am a Khan

    I never really understood Hindu girls until I lived with them in the college hostel studying medicine…they became like my sisters- more than that,in fact.
    What I really understood from my hostel days is that,hindus are generally,extremely broadminded (I’m not talking about bjp)
    I had a fellow muslim friend( who also had good hindu friends)-she remarked to me,that all these hindus,would not attain heaven-no matter what great souls they were.This Islamic childhood teaching-is not part of the hindu psyche( the scorn for ‘unbelievers’ which muslims have,isn’t something a hindu has-who tend to think of all humans as God’s people,irrespective of religion)
    When this muslim mindset of being refered to as apostate/kafir,becomes known to a hindu,then they feel anger at their all inclusive,broadminded attitude-which is natural.
    I personally lay more emphasis on the goodness of a human being now,irrespective of religion,now.
    Many religions consider that only ‘believers’ will go to heaven-nothing wrong with that,as long as the ‘believers’ also don’t think that,apostates are subhuman or meant to be killed.Recommend

  • the_dr_engr

    Brothers yes, equals yes, in seperate countries DEFINITELY YES! Long live Pakistan..Recommend

  • Bharat

    Its been a long time since partition and there was a reason that it happened in the first place. In my opinion, both countries are happy with the partition.

    Now there is no point in talking about the pastRecommend

  • Rishi

    @Dr.N.Khatoon:
    British Indian Army not only fought in S.E Asia and in some European theaters but also had its fare share in the deserts of Northern Africa including Egypt where they gave Rommel’s Afrika Korps run for their money. If yankees can gloat for invasion of Normandy, British Indian Army could be uprightly credited with Italian liberation from fascism. At the end of WW-2 British Indian Army was the third largest military after US Army and Red Army. But, alas, it was at the cost of people of India like famine in Bengal and humongous donations from princely states right out of every Indian’s pocket.Recommend

  • I am a Khan

    @rohan:
    @Bharat:

    I appreciate your comments and agree that most indian commenters (showing hardcore anti pakistan and anti muslim feelings) on ET websites are not the average indian hindu.

    One thing I have noticed is that the so called Pakistani seculars are much more monstrous in their hatred for Islam and practicing muslims than people from across the border.

    I personally had a great indian hindu friend whom I used to work with. He called me ‘Khan Bhai’ and I called him ‘Kuwar Jee’ (He was from Rajistan). We always joked that the rajputs and pathans are arguably the bravest people of the sub continent.

    Islam teaches respect and tolerance for all religions. In my life I am respectful towards all humans. However, on the ET comments section, when I see the Islam haters making outrageously wrong comments against Islam and muslims, then I usually get hard with them. Recommend

  • http://www.facebook.com/britishmuslims Mohammed Abbasi

    Great article Recommend

  • Unpaid BJP Media bot

    rohan: “Don’t confuse Indians with paid BJP Media bots”

    Dang! I knew there was a party going on some where. Thanks bro.

    Hey, my back-pay would have reeeally piled up (Imagines a truckload of NaMo souvenirs and beams from ear to ear)Recommend

  • Ali Tanoli

    As a Critic writer i can say that diffrences of opinion is not a wrong thing it help to understan
    – d in diffrent angles and thats even allowed in islam.Recommend

  • Indian ‘Commenter’

    @I am a Khan: “… but the Indian Commenters of ET tell a different story… How many hindus will call Dr Zakir Naik (a practicing muslim and an Indian) as their brother?”

    Too easy.

    You could have set the bar higher – what about Bhatkal or Afzal Guru or Dawood Ibrahim.

    Not like you had any meaningful discussion in mind. Your mind was made up before ever you read one comment on ET.Recommend

  • Dr.N.Khatoon

    @ Rishi

    Though world history is my hobby and I have eclectic knowledge of it- all that information you gave me is brand new.
    I have seen interesting Corps emblems & epitaphs on British World War I&II cemetery headstones and was startled to see people from North Africa,Australia etc buried in madras.
    Will read up more on what you described.
    Thank you.Recommend

  • Geeto

    Excellent article! I wish to see an open border between the two. I wish to visit Delhi the way, I visit Lahore, I wish to see all the future battles between the two on only play grounds, I wish, I wish, I wish ……. may be my grand children would see that day . . .!Recommend

  • Labbaikyahussain

    @ I am a Khan, thats not true, i care very little for Zakir Naik as a shia MUSLIM and you should know why…Recommend

  • Army brat

    @ I am a Khan

    Neither Rajputs,nor Pathans..the bravest soldiers are the Gurkhas.Recommend

  • Alann

    I am a Khan: “I appreciate your sentiment, but the Indian Commenters of ET tell a different story. They show their extreme hatred for Islam and Muslims. How many Hindus will call a practicing muslim as their brother? How many Hindus will call Dr Zakir Naik (a practicing muslim and an Indian) as their brother? Dr Naik calls every human being as his brother/sister”

    I would like to tell you, India & Pakistan may have partitioned but not much changed in India. Even today there are millions of Muslims in Indian Army, alongwith Hindus, Christians, Sikhs and others.
    Go around checking the various fan pages of Indian Armed Forces on Facebook and you will see many Indian Muslims having the same anti-Pakistani sentiments, just like the “Zionist Hindu banyas”. Like so many Indian Hindu/Muslim/Christian/Sikh commenters on ET have said multiple times before, stop caring for Muslims in India – they are living a much better life than the ones in Pakistan (I won’t even talk of Pakistan’s minorities! oops I did).
    As for Zakir Naik, feel free to send him requests to come reside in Pakistan so all ‘pious Muslims’ of Pakistan can listen to his “holy” lectures alongwith others like Zaid Hamid.Recommend

  • gp65

    @Shakir Lakhani: “Let’s hope it happens in my lifetime, although I doubt it.”

    I do not agree with many of your comments but this comment I agree with whole heartedly.Recommend

  • gp65

    rohan: “Don’t confuse Indians with paid BJP Media bots”

    If you truly believed in democracy, you would understand that dissent is part of democracy. Anyone that supports a party that you do not, does not automatically become a paid media bot. Please review such stereotypes.Recommend

  • G. Din

    The author suffers from a barely-concealed nostomania. In most cases, it is an Hindu affliction or perhaps more accurately a Punjabi Hindu affliction. Barring BIMARU states (“misery loves company”), all others are mighty glad India and Pakistan split. May we both go our own separate ways! Recommend

  • Parvez

    It’s good to read something like this every once in a while. It gives you sense of what could be……….nothing wrong in that.
    Recommend

  • Anand

    @Ali Tanoli

    “…differences of opinion is not a wrong thing….and thats even allowed in islam.”

    Are you sure? I think it is allowed only to and among those who believe in the finality of Prophet and Allah’s words. Problem is that there is hardly any difference left to discuss and debate after such wholesale surrender of critical thinking.Recommend

  • Abingdonboy

    Let’s get real for a moment shall we and move away from this nostalgia. Since 1947 how many times have the two sides fought? How many soldiers have been killed on both sides? What may have once been a “brotherhood” is long gone and almost out of living memory. Today the armies of both are trained to fight and kill the other- there is no sentimentality, no longing for peace. Then when you have Indian soldiers beheaded on their soil do you think an Indian army soldier would consider anyone from the Paksitan army their “brother”??

    India has been projected as the big bad boogeyman in Paksitan for much of its history. There is little appetite in Paksitan for closer ties with India. And I’d dare say even less willingness in the Indian public for closer ties with Paksitan considering the ongoing proxy war the Paksitan state is waging against India. Does anyone really think the atrocities of 26/11 can or should be forgiven? What about the attack on India’s democratic establishment in 2001? Recommend

  • yash

    Dear Sapan Kapoor, Pakistanis still can be your brothers if you don’t try to hurt them.Recommend

  • ajeet

    Neighbours yes, brothers? No.
    What do Indians have in common with people who think of themselves as arabs!Recommend

  • sherrry

    we can still be brothers as separate states,
    vacate kashmir ,we ll have joint military exercises to refresh the old memories of Mr sapan kapoorRecommend

  • rohan

    @ gp65:
    Point taken :)
    I agree !Recommend

  • http://blogs.tribune.com.pk/author/1243/jamaluddin/ Jamaluddin

    Pakistan and India can be at peace. But this colonial nostalgia should now be buried. Pakistan is a nation according to every definition of a nation. Lets just keep it that way.
    Salam.Recommend

  • http://blogs.tribune.com.pk/author/1243/jamaluddin/ Jamaluddin

    @Abingdonboy:
    what about the proxy war in Baluchistan and Interior Sind that India is engaged in ?Recommend

  • Indian

    @Janaluddin, Bro nobody’s disputing that Pakistan is not a nation here. Just by remembering our past Pakistan will not cease to be a nation. Pakistan is a nation and will always remain so. The problem is that our history has already been buried by those who don’t want us to know that it’s not as black as has been narrated in our text books. There’s much more to it. I agree with you though that India and Pakistan can be at peace. I’d say they must be at peace. Salam Recommend

  • Perplexed

    @ Jamaluddin

    Do you have any non-pakistani,non-Indian,non-Al Jazeera link where I can read about Indian involvement in terrorism in Sindh & Baluchistan,like ( BBC,Reuters,CNN etc. )?
    You’re the second person,I have come across here making this allegation (the first person ‘Sane’,I thought wasn’t in touch with reality)
    Now I want to know if my govt.is really involved in such activities.Recommend

  • ABZ

    For God sake, gimme a break,,,we were we are and we will never be brothers, make that very clear..its an insult to the sacrifices our elders have given in getting this independent homeland plus the 2 nation theory that our great Quaid strived hard for and succeeded .

    Its shameful on behalf of ET to even publish such non sense. I m sure many of the ignorant naive & idiot fellow country men of mine will label me as Hawkish, they probably have forgotten the history or must have been suffering with bad memory.

    Sic..
    At a time when we are facing the Indian Aggression on LOC and sacrificing our young blood ho are there to protect us, and here we are singing the songs of harmony based on the writers wishes.

    Shame on all of those who are calling the Indians as their brothersRecommend

  • Abbas

    @B
    I did my masters in the UK and I felt more comfortable with the Sikh and Hindu students. The UK Pakistanis are lost touch with their culture and picked up an Arabised Islam when I was there in the 1985.. Punjabi muslims in the UK were under the illusion that bhangra was some Sikh dance that they should not partake in. They just did not know to have good time.Recommend

  • Kappa

    @I am a Khan:

    Dear Khan Bhai…Zakir Naik is banned to enter Islamic Republic of Pakistan by Pakistan Government. Secondly, secularists believe in humanity and will never ever disintegrate into 53 plus sects like religionists.Recommend

  • Kappa

    @I am a Khan:

    Dr Zakir Naik is preaching in and from a non muslim secular country. A hindu, Jew or a christian preaching his religion in an islamic country is un imaginable.
    Dr Zakir Naik is banned in Pakistan.
    Secularists believe in humanity and they are never likely to disintegrate into sects.Recommend

  • AK

    @I am a Khan: An average Indian lives his average life not thinking about religion. If you ask me most of us have their best friends not defined by religion. We never think of religion as a parameter. But the frustration comes in when there is appeasement politics and when people like
    Zakir Naik try to push their own Agenda. My best friends are Muslims, some of them are more than blood brothers. So yes most of us (believe me) dont define our love/respect based on religion. Thats India for you. As far as Zakir Naik goes, we will call him brother when starts to become a good Muslim or rather good human being. Have you even heard his speeches , full of lies, misinformation with an undercurrent of hatred towards other religions.

    @ABZ: You dont have any problems in claiming invaders like Mughals/Afghans as your ancestors, who probably would not only have murdered your ancestors but might also have raped them. But you do have problem in calling your brothers(in literal sense) as your brother. Need a lesson in History my friend touche touche!

    Bloodbath happened on both sides my man.First try to apprehend the real and unbiased reasons for those. Then may be you would start seeing people rather than nationalities. Recommend

  • Cross-eyed

    @ ABZ

    There was bloodshed and atrocities committed by both sides.The old timers there,have had their full share of fun too.You follow me ?Recommend

  • B

    @ Abbas

    I’ve observed something similar,abroad.Recommend

  • I am a Khan

    @Kappa:

    Dear Kappa Bro/Sis, its a big delusion to think that secularists are one and believe in humanity. They are full of man made divisions like race, language, culture, country, football club, etc. If you are an Asian/African and go in the midst of a far right European ‘Secular’ party, you might not even come back alive. In the west you have ‘secular’ people injuring and sometimes even killing each other just because they belong to rival football clubs- where is humanity in them? In India the Maoists, in Sri Lanka the LTTE, were all secular right? Did they believe in humanity?

    Bottom line is whoever does not follow the commands of Allah (The real God), will degenerate into animal like behaviour whether they call themselves religious or secular. As Dr Zakir Naik rightly says. Humanity is like Matric, Islam is like PHD. Why stop at Matric when God wants you to go above that. Any one who truly follows the divine religion of Islam will show the perfect example of Humanity. Dont look at the behaviour of the majority of South Asian or Middle Eastern Muslims (who are not even practicing muslims) to judge Islam. Islam is for the entire humanity from the real True God. The western/african converts (reverts) to Islam are examples of great humans and so are the practicing muslims be they arabs, africans, asians, europeans or whoever. Problem is in today’s world you have very few practicing muslims. . Recommend

  • Kappa

    @I am a Khan:

    Races are made by god or evolution. Secular humans ( who separate religion from politics) are far more progressive than people involving religion into politics.
    Maoists, LTTE were/ are separation movements and have nothing to do with secularism.

    Dr Zakir Naik is banned in Islamic republic of Pakistan. Please do a bit research for the reasons. Even among muslims He is not welcomed. Recommend

  • http://Bahawalpur Suqraat

    Reminds me of a heart wrenching story of Saadat Hassan Manto – Akhri salute (The last salute).
    Story of old friends Subedar Rab Nawaz and Subedar Ram Singh who once served together in 2/9 Jaat Regiment before partition. After partition they come across each other in 1948 war of Kashmir and Raam Singh gets killed by an accidental fire of Rab Nawaz.

    High time for both the countries to come on negotiations table so they can have their full attention towards the miserable masses.Recommend

  • Kappa

    @I am a Khan:

    “Problem is in today’s world you have very few practicing muslims”

    This is not a problem. This is a reality which you and those few ( out of 7 billion humans) are not ready to accept but sure will accept in the times ahead. Religious era is over.
    Also, you cannot sell a thing until you bring innovation in it. Recommend

  • ranjit

    @I am a Khan – “Humanity is like Matric, Islam is like PHD”

    Sirji, this is correct to a large extent………even in hinduism, there is worship of the ‘Nirakar’ or formless God, which is the ultimate level of worship………….however, most ordinary mortals are not able to perform that………the same thing is obvious with Islam……..it has very lofty ideals but in reality most people cannot get to even 5% of what it really teaches……for instance, the Holy Quran teaches that taking one innocent life is equivalent to killing humanity………..please tell that to the Taliban who profess to champion Islam………..the reality is that Islam has become a reflection of how its followers behave, not what is written in the holy book………..we all have to live our lives on this planet among ordinary mortals……..we cannot live in an imaginary world………and if most ordinary followers of Islam behave in a jaahil manner every dat, how can you expect everyone to adopt Islam?……………Recommend

  • indian

    @I am a Khan:
    only you can think zakir naik logic is best . but the fact is you like his nonsense logic because you like what he says not because what he says is logical. Recommend

  • Sane

    Hindus and Muslims were never one and shall never be.Recommend

  • P
  • GP

    First thing first, treat hindus and other minorities in pakistan with respect and love. How many captains, majors, brigadiars and generals are there in the Pakistani army & intelligence?Recommend

  • I am a Khan

    @Kappa:
    “Religious era is over.
    Also, you cannot sell a thing until you bring innovation in it.”

    Thats not right. Humans need God and belief in the divine religion sent by God for their own betterment. You will agree that this world today is less safe than it was 50 years ago. All to do with the degeneration of humans and their moving away from God’s message (be they muslims or non muslims). Regarding innovation, that is just needed for man made things, not for the divine message or things made by God. Example is that humans are a creation of God, they used to feel hunger and eat food thousands of years ago and still feel hunger and eat food today. Humans died thousands of years ago, humans still die. Similarly the sun rises and sets each day since its creation and continues to do so today, no innovation there. Innovation is only needed in man made things like cars, computers, houses, etc.

    @ranjit:

    Dear ranjit, humans have that basic level of intelligence given to them by God by which they can understand and follow God’s message. Humans not following God’s message is no excuse for saying that humans are not capable of following the divine religion. All humans are in a state of loss (both in this life and the afterlife) except those who did 4 things : belief in the Real God, performed good deeds, remained on the just path and told others to do the same and remained patient and told others to do the same.

    Anyways I have fulfilled my responsibility and conveyed the message to you guys. Its entirely up to you to choose your own path. Good Bye. Recommend

  • Kappa

    @I am a Khan:
    “You will agree that this world today is less safe than it was 50 years ago”

    No I wont because nearly 50 years ago we had a world war. Humanity ( apart from killings within muslims) is much safer today .

    “Example is that humans are a creation of God, they used to feel hunger and eat food thousands of years ago and still feel hunger and eat food today”

    Where is human mind? Do you even believe in development of human mind. I am sure you do not. Reform is required in your mind as the world has changed completely from religious era ( where superstitious was dominant) to scientific era ( where logic and proof is dominant). Recommend

  • Kappa

    @I am a Khan:

    “You will agree that this world today is less safe than it was 50 years ago”

    No i do not agree. Nearly 60 years ago we had a world war. Today, apart from certain muslim countries the world is very much safe. Please check out below recent survey of happiest nations.

    http://en-maktoob.news.yahoo.com/lightbox/the-the-world-happiness-report-don-t-worry-be-happy-slideshow/

    “Regarding innovation, that is just needed for man made things”

    Religions are man made. Do you even notice that god or evolution made BRAIN is same but “MIND” has developed over time? Why religionists do not believe in development of mind? Are we the same humans mentally as we were centuries back. New ideas, discoveries, Innovation in things come as our mind develops. With the development of mind we have rejected ideas that do not comply with logic and proof and are based on superstition.

    And, frankly I dont see any point discussing this issue if you dont believe in changes and development in human mind.Recommend

  • Bharat

    India and Pakistan live in friendship without interfering in each others internal affairs. Live and let live. Anything more will be impossible and unnecessary.Recommend

  • I am a Khan

    @Kappa:
    I agree with you that Man Made religions believe in Superstitions and illogical myths.

    However the Divine Religion Islam asks humans to be logical and question the existence of this universe and use their mind and logic to understand that the universe and all that is in it has been created by the One & Only God. Recommend

  • Rishi

    @Dr.N.Khatoon:

    I myself am an Air Force buff Ma’am, but no sane military enthusiast can resist the endavours of Ground Infantry, there is much more in the history of sub continent (both military and civil) than usually taught to the generations post 1947 (not sure about what was taught before 47) and is much inter connected with World history. Perhaps we may share a common platform to discuss such things and may be you can enlighten me with your knowledge and experience.

    Best Regards
    RishiRecommend

  • Kappa

    @I am a Khan:
    ” Regarding innovation, that is just needed for man made things, not for the divine message or things made by God.”

    God made iron, copper, carbon and many raw elements but humans made cars, electronics, aeroplanes , building materials by doing innovation in the god’s made things. So you are proven wrong again.

    “I agree with you that Man Made religions believe in Superstitions and illogical myths.”

    75% humans believe the same for your religion. So this you should be debating with people belonging to other religions. Me being an agnostic, this is not my topic anymore.Recommend

  • I am a Khan

    @Kappa:
    “God made iron, copper, carbon and many raw elements but humans made cars, electronics, aeroplanes , building materials by doing innovation in the god’s made things. So you are proven wrong again.”

    Wrong again. Humans are not ‘innovating’ the natural resources; they ‘use’ the resources from God in a way which helps them. A similar example would be to use the divine Islamic principles in Banking, Legal System, Constitution, Inheritance, Family Law, etc. just as iron is used to make cars, gold is used to make rings…

    “75% humans believe the same for your religion.”
    Following majority is not the yardstick for being right.Through out history only few humans have been on the right path and have achieved change in society with God’s help. Recommend

  • Kappa

    @I am a Khan:

    “they ‘use’ the resources from God in a way which helps them.”

    Do humans use the god made raw resources ” as it is” or do they “refine and transform” for better use? Please think before answering.

    And there are many religions less in followers than your religion and they believe they are following the right path.Recommend

  • I am a Khan

    @Kappa:

    you dont get it, yes humans transform the divine resources in order to use them for products and make man made products from divine resources, but humans have never been able to ‘innovate’ the underlying properties of God’s resources, for example humans have never turned iron ore into water nor made water into iron, that would be called ‘innovation’ which is not possible. This even proves the point that all so called ‘Man Made’ things are all dependent on God’s natural resources. so without God’s help man cannot do anything on this earth. without rain and sunshine from God, humans cannot even harvest foods to eat.

    Similarly the divine principles of Islam are not subject to change or innovation by humans but yes islamic principles can be used by humans in their life like in islamic banking, islamic legal systems, etc to help them in their daily lives. think about it. Recommend

  • Kappa

    @I am a Khan:

    “yes humans “transform” the “divine resources” in order to use them for products”

    Now You got it very well. Nations who have “transformed” divine resources ( including message) are far far ahead of muslims. Cheers and Goodbye.Recommend

  • Ben

    @I am a Khan:

    “humans have never turned iron ore into water nor made water into iron, that would be called ‘innovation’ which is not possible.

    What about turning sunlight, water, wind into electricity by humans. Would you call this innovation?Recommend

  • I am a Khan

    @Kappa:

    I explained in detail to you in my posts above, resources are ‘processed’ to make products, but divine resources are not ‘innovated’ nor ‘changed’. Iron can be processed into car bodies but Iron cannot be changed/innovated into water.

    similarly the divine message can be ‘processed’ to make shariah compliant banking , islamic legal systems etc but the divine message cannot be ‘innovated’ or ‘changed’.
    Where people make innovations or changes in the divine message, it ceases to become divine and leads to fake man made religions! If iron is melted and made into water, it will not be fit for drinking, farming, etc like the pure water provided by God.

    cheers and good bye. Recommend

  • I am a Khan

    @Ben:
    “What about turning sunlight, water, wind into electricity by humans. Would you call this innovation?”

    Its called ‘processing’ the natural resources to use for human benefit. can humans change or innovate the sun from a fire ball into an ice ball? Recommend

  • I am a Khan

    @Ben:

    “What about turning sunlight, water, wind into electricity by humans. Would you call this innovation?”

    Yes innovation in electricity (a man made thing), but no innovation in sunlight, water and wind (God made things). Recommend

  • Ben

    @I am a Khan:

    Sunlight is converted to electricity therefore it is innovation in sunlight. Common sense dude.

    From ” No change” to ” transform” to “processed” you are just playing with words to satisfy your illogical thinking. A typical religionist.Recommend

  • Gratgy

    @I am a Khan

    *If iron is melted and made into water, it will not be fit for drinking, farming, etc like the pure water provided by God.*

    But in a hydrogen fuel cell, Hydrogen with the addition of Oxygen produces water pure enough to drink

    Also Uranium, a divine resource can be converted into Barium and Krypton during a fission process.Recommend

  • Kappa

    @I am a Khan:

    “Iron can be “processed” into car bodies but Iron cannot be changed/innovated into water.”

    I am not talking here about changing iron into water. All i am telling is that it cannot be used “as it is” and has to be refined, reformed to make it usable. For the “processing” of iron which comes in raw form from nature i.e iron ore, “impurities must be removed” ( refining and reforming process) to convert it into cast iron or steel to make it usable. Please check below link how iron ore ( raw iron) is processed.
    http://www.chemguide.co.uk/inorganic/extraction/iron.html

    This is very simple to understand my point.

    “Following majority is not the yardstick for being right”

    So Religions having less followers (than your religion) might be on the right path. Do you agree?Recommend

  • Ben

    @I am a Khan:

    Nuclear transmutation is the conversion of one chemical element or isotope into another. In other words, atoms of one element can be changed into atoms of other element by ‘transmutation’. This occurs either through nuclear reactions (in which an outside particle reacts with a nucleus), or through radioactive decay (where no outside particle is needed).
    Nuclear transmutation can occur through various natural processes, or it may be artificially induced by human intervention.
    There are reports that Glenn Seaborg, 1951 Nobel Laureate in Chemistry, succeeded in transmuting a minute quantity of lead (possibly en route from bismuth, in 1980) into gold. There is an earlier report (1972) in which Soviet physicists at a nuclear research facility near Lake Baikal in Siberia accidentally discovered a reaction for turning lead into gold when they found the lead shielding of an experimental reactor had changed to gold.Recommend

  • Carl

    @I am a Khan:

    If iron is melted and made into water, it will not be fit for drinking, farming, etc like the pure water provided by God.

    Natural water is being modified and improved by refining and adding various minerals ( bottled water) to make it “better and healthier” for drinking.Recommend

  • dude

    @Geeto:
    Oper border.horrible. are you kidding!Recommend

  • I am a Khan

    @Kappa & Others:

    When you say ‘impurities’ must be removed, from natural resources you are using a very lay man term. For a specialist Geologist, the purest form of Iron Ore is that which contains all the different mineral quantities in it (your so called impurities are actually different minerals/metals). For example when Iron ore is processed and your ‘impurities’ are removed, these so called ‘impurities’ are usually other metals like lithium which is much more expensive than Iron. So the point is natural resources contain different minerals of the purest form, which you as a lay person call impurities.

    Also, water is purified for impurities put in by humans/other living creatures. The purest form of water still remains the one which comes from the clouds and has not touched the impurities of the earth (caused by living creatures).

    Can any human innovate or change the inherent heat in the Sun and make it an ice ball from a fire ball?

    Islam is Divine because Islam the the only religion which explicitly says it is from God and the only religion that tells humans to worship only God and no other objects or dieties or personalities…. Recommend