Is it time for gay rights in Pakistan?
We have shunned millions of our brothers and sisters and they have given up all hope of finding support from us. PHOTO: AFP
Earlier this month, for the first time in its history, the United Nations (UN) passed a resolution to protect and uphold gay rights universally. The US Department of State successfully lobbied to bring under the banner of universal declaration of human rights, equal rights for lesbians, gays, and transgender people. The resolution was passed with 23 affirmations against 19 disavowals.
While some of us celebrate this momentous turn in attitudes, it is sobering to note that it took the UN this long to recognise the oppressive violence faced by homosexuals everybody and to finally declare that yes, gays are human beings as well. We have got to somewhere, I suppose.
Excerpts from some of the speeches on the floor were posted on the United Nations blog including the following statement from Pakistan:
“Introducing new rights “may misinterpret the Universal Declaration of Human Rights…these attempts jeopardize the entire human rights framework,” and that “while considering the issue of human rights many things must be kept in mind… these things [gay rights] have nothing to do with fundamental human rights.”
Similar repudiations citing religion, cultural and sociological arguments were made by Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Ghana, Nigeria, Mauritania, Uganda and several other Organisation for the Islamic Conference (OIC) countries.
Whether Pakistanis like it or not, the resolution is binding on Pakistan as a member of the United Nations. Unfortunately, as the status quo goes, there is no enforcement mechanism to make violation of rights punishable. As hopeful as the global affirmation may seem, the situation in Pakistan is quite abysmal.
A gay friend lamented:
“The very term gay rights is an oxymoron here. There is no such thing. We have no rights in Pakistan.”
Where does one even begin the debate in Pakistan?
How do you get past the literal interpretation of religious texts that leave no room for such a debate?
Islam if read as a monolith, stuck in time and fixed in space, will not allow equal rights to homosexuals.
To change opinions in Pakistan, however, we need to be able to find solutions within the faith. Rebuttals and recantations will not win hearts and minds, we need to fight this battle employing the language that is heard and understood.
There are several Muslim scholars who maintain accepting views on homosexuality, the discussions are available for anyone to peruse.
In Indonesia during the Conference of Religions and Peace in 2008 it was concluded that homosexuals and homosexuality are natural and created by God, thus permissible within Islam. Siti Musdah Mulia cited al-Hujurat (49:3) from the Quran and said that one of the blessings for human beings was that all men and women are equal, regardless of ethnicity, wealth, social positions or even sexual orientation. She said:
“There is no difference between lesbians and non-lesbians. In the eyes of God, people are valued based on their piety. And talking about piety is God’s prerogative to judge.”
There are countless practicing Muslims who have managed to reconcile their sexual orientation and faith and find no reason to focus on conflict within the two. Some maintain blogs to document their every day experience while others prefer to challenge the plethora of preconceived notions through academic writing.
Trouble is that such voices are few and far between. You don’t hear them because they are afraid to speak up. They are afraid for their life and safety of their loved ones if they come out.
They are unwilling to be subjected to a lifetime of shame and ridicule.
We have shunned millions of our brothers and sisters and they have given up all hope of finding support from us.
UN resolutions are nice enough but they are a result of a decades-long struggle for equality, fairness and justice. It did not happen overnight. A million lives had to be sacrificed for a million more to speak up.
Speaking up won’t be enough anymore. If we don’t yell, loudly and proudly to make ourselves heard, I’m afraid the battle will already be lost.
The views expressed by the writer and the reader comments do not necessarily reflect the views and policies of The Express Tribune.
Science, as we understand it currently, is a “shallow vessel” when it comes to morality and it can only provide supplementary and often very partial answers. There is consensus among scientists that there is a genetic component to being gay, but it only becomes “operative”, as it were, in conjunction with the environment, just as some are genetically wired to, say, have high blood pressure and if their lives are stressful, they will develop the condition much faster than someone in whose family background high blood pressure has not been a common occurrence. The issue–as with most “Nature vs. Nurture” issues–remains open to debate, albeit within rational, humane, and non-prejudicial parameters:
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For everyone who argues that the introduction of the rights of homosexuals will lead to the complete and utter destruction of our much sanctified family structure, here’s a reality check:
There are “marriages” being arranged all over our country, bonds that involve a gay husband and an unsuspecting wife or a woman who desires a marriage of convenience. Either way, the mentality applied is one of sheer ignorance: that once a gay man is married off to a woman, he will discover and revel in the absolute wonders of heterosexuality. I’m sure this sort of thing happens to women too, but it is far more commonly heard of in cases that involve gay men. It doesn’t lead to the man being rid of his “mental illness” (primarily because homosexuality is not a psychological illness, it is a sexual orientation that may occur naturally. Just like heterosexual preferences do), all it leads to is the man carrying on with his life as a homosexual in private, all while maintaining a public facade.
Furthermore, what about the various instances of extra-marital affairs that men have in our society? What about domestic violence? What about the fact that if you marry a lesbian off to a man, she is essentially being raped by her husband under the guise of his legal “right” to have sex with her? What about her rights and her preferences? Does that not threaten our beloved family structure? And what about honour killings that are often looked at leniently because they are actions taken by “insulted” family members to “regain” honor. The honour of what? Of the family structure?
I agree that Pakistan has a long way to go before we can actively start talking about people’s rights to individual identities that they carve out for themselves; granted, most people in Pakistan are caught up in a struggle to survive and there may not be room for debate about homosexual rights. But think of it this way: If our provincial assemblies can sit and deliberate over the corrupting influence of sheesha lounges on the youth and pass a bill banning them, this debate over the rights of living, breathing citizens of Pakistan should take some sort of precedence.
We all know that homosexuality is a reality in Pakistan. I don’t know how we can deny it or turn a blind eye to it. And when it is a reality, rather than pretending it doesn’t exist, we can try to acknowledge it to the small extent that we can, and allow people to have basic rights that will let them live their lives in peace. It is literally all they want, I assure you, contrary to the popularly held belief that “g@yz r 3v!l nD v!l d3str0y oUr f@m!li33zzX”.Recommend
Nooooooooooooooooooooo to Gay Rights!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Why you people are talking crap about the molvis?????
I am not even a good muslim but i condemn the Gay rights! Come on people! its against our Religion, our ethinics, our Society can’t accept this…Is there anyone of you who would want their son or Daughter to become a Gay or a Lesbian… We have to accept this that we cannot adopt this western way of living!
And why the HECK we dont adopt their good things, like education health policy and others!Recommend
So why are people like @Nisar Ahmad who claim they are not good Muslims rant in a homophobic manner to deny the rights of gay, lesbian and transgender societies?
People who are born gay are not born in the east or west. Gayness does not discriminate residency of choice. The only reason the parents would not want their son or daughter to be recognized as being gay is to protect then from the gay haters.
What would people like @Nisar Ahmad feel if the situation was reversed and his rights to marry a nice Pakistani girl would be denied?
In America the religious organizations from Roman Catholic Church, Mormon, Evangelical Christians, Conservative Jews and Sikhs & Muslims have joined forces to try to deny same-sex rights. Many people who are not religious themselves want religious dogma applied to gay people that reeks of hypocrisy, the same that allows religion to demean women rights. I have never understood why so called straight men are so threatened by a gay man.
Could it be that all those who vehemently oppose Gay rights are secretly closeted gays themselves so ranting against the issue creates an invisible wall of secrecy?Recommend
Maybe if we stopped looking at every goddamn thing through the goggles of organised religion, we could learn to expand our minds and live and let live in peace!Recommend
In all the above comments, the biggest allegation on molvis is that they rape children. This means that there are lot of gay molvis in the mosques.
Result:
a. We should tolerate homosexuals in the society, however not in the mosques.
b. You cannot be a molvi and a gay at the same time.
c. If you befriend someone (and afterwards declare yourself Gay), Thats Good. But if you rape someone (and dont declare yourself gay), thats bad.Recommend
http://gaymuslims.org/2011/06/28/oops/
Since you linked to this blog in your article, it would be worth reading what that particular blog has to say about your article. Please read the post on the link above
HasanRecommend
I don’t think that it is and this is coming from a gay himself. We first need to be accepted and then seek for any kind of right. Gaining rights would not solve any problem. What would solve the problem is if so called ‘normal’ people are convinced that we are normal human beings as well and as productive as any other person in this world. Everybody have read about Hazrat Shoaib’s (A.S) people as well and how and why they were wiped away from the face of this world. Yet nobody speaks ill about them. Before saying that I’m a sinner and would go to hell, go to any sabzi/phal wala and say that to him. Go to people who store rice/wheat/petrol to manipulate with the prices and say that to them. Look it into your own selves first and ask yourself, ‘am I sure I’m going to heaven’ and then call me a Sinner.Recommend
@ kashif – My friend I think you missed the main question that most anti-gay people make is that they try connect gay people with pedophiles. Let me for once get this clear to people with fuzzy brains…there is no evidence that gay people are pedophiles and that if a person who is gay molest an underage child he or she should be subjected to the harsh punishment of the law. Similarly if a heterosexual person commits the same act they to are accounatable. If you are a Molvi and you engage with a consenting adult then you can be a gay Molvi.
Rape in any form is a heinous crime if heaped upon a man or woman, there are no legal limitations on age. Is being gay contagious, the religious institutions would like dim witted people to believe that and if anyone thinks that being gay is a choice then any further argument is retarded.Recommend
@Nighat Mishbah:
Can I just make a general request to all contributors to this discussion and especially because both sides have fallen short of this, but we can try and keep the discussions as civilised as possible. I feel compelled to also state that some of the ‘pro-gay’ contingent on this thread who are always talking about Pakistan’s need to become more enlightened, more progressive, your mannerisms are often atrocious and your use of coarse language, whilst I know is fashionable amongst the young pakistani social elite, is antithetical to a civilised, intelligent western society.
A little bit of advice here Nighat, it is always best not to make definitive statements if your research base is weak. You said, and I quote, “Let me for once get this clear to people with fuzzy brains…there is no evidence that gay people are pedophiles” In light of this statement please consider the following link which is one of a number of such reports highlighting evidence contrary to your position. The veracity of the evidence always needs to be considered, but I am simply stating that there DOES seem to be evidence here (http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=13722).
I have always felt that a lack of evidence from the ‘pro-gay’ quarter for seemingly impressive biological assertions that are made, is worrying. There is no point in having a sensible debate if people are going to fabricate information. I am in no way suggesting that this does not happen with the ‘anti-gay’ camp, but where the former are always insisting on the need to discuss matters in a logical and intelligent way, I don’t see how this is possible if they are not going to be honest. What this inevitably highlights is that ‘pro-gay’ contingent have no credible argument; they seem more to be like young children having a tantrum, demanding things out of pure desire (only intended as a metaphor and not an insult)Recommend
What I find funny is the author trying to find a justification for homosexuality within the Qur’an (obviously there is none and there never can be). Allah does not hate homosexuals, He hates the act of homosexuality. Yes, homosexuals can be practicing Muslims but that inherently means they don’t practice homosexuality. If by gay rights you mean we should allow people to declare they are gay and don’t wish to get married, then I’m all for it. However if that means allowing gays to openly practice homosexuality then I’m absolutely against it. Next we’ll be seeing gays asking for legalising nikahs.
Yes to allowing gays to declare their status and respecting them as fellow Muslims and citizens. No to condoning the act of homosexuality.Recommend
A research says!!
Gay activist and scientist Simon LeVay said: “It’s important to stress what I didn’t find. I did not prove that homosexuality is genetic, or find a genetic cause for being gay. I didn’t show that gay men are born that way, the most common mistake people make in interpreting my work. Nor did I locate a gay center in the brain.” “Gay activism was clearly the force that propelled the APA to declassify homosexuality”.
Lesbian activist Camille Paglia said:
“Homosexuality is not ‘normal.’ On the contrary it is a challenge to the norm…Nature exists whether academics like it or not. And in nature, procreation is the single relentless rule. That is the norm. Our sexual bodies were designed for reproduction…No one is born gay. The idea is ridiculous…”
Lesbian activist and biologist Dr. Anne Fausto-Sterling, referring to the “born gay” argument, said:
“It provides a legal argument that is, at the moment actually having some sway in court. For me, it’s a very shaky place. It’s bad science and bad politics.”
A. Byrd, PhD said, “There is no support in the scientific research for the conclusion that homosexuality is biologically determined.”
Peter Dimrock (MSW) said:
“Many men who were sexually abused (especially those abused by other men), are confused about their sexual/affectional preference.
The National Organization on Male Sexual Victimization (NOMSV) website.
W.C. Holmes, MD said:
“Abused [male] adolescents, particularly those victimized by males, were up to 7 times more likely to self-identify as gay or bisexual…”Recommend
What gay rights in Pakistan????????
Like being gay and still marrying a woman and have kids with her, make her feel dirty, foolish, used abused, hated, hanging in a useless anticipation that some day her husband might magically change his orientation… Isn’t this the story of gays in our society, may be not in the elite class, but in the rest it is. And please don’t start with me with “the peer pressure”. If you can defy God, how difficult it is to defy humans????Recommend
@Nighat Mishbah:
If a person is born with the instincts to kill others , he cannot be allowed to murder people in scoiety , if a person is born with the instincts to rape women he cannot be allowed to do that in society. Why the hell we try to convert Non Muslims to Islam as they are “born” with that faith. Come on!!!!.Recommend
“Gay activism was clearly the force that propelled the APA to declassify homosexuality”
If anything, the anti-gay activism was what prevented an unbiased, scientific research on the matter and took APA so long to remove homosexuality from the list of psychiatric disorders.
Ever considered that? Nah, it’s much more convenient to believe in silly gay conspiracy theories. Be careful, y’all! Gay people are out to get you! BoooOOOooOOo…Recommend
@Usman Qureshi: My friend you are quoting a link from ultraconservative WorldNetDaily a Christian biased niche producer of rightwing conspiracy theories …as a source these same people who are über-reactionary Christian website who have been forming at the mouth with hate filled propaganda characterized as “the dangers of radical Islam”, … I would rather accept a mainstream link from you to make your point, so please try again.
If all these so called scientist and doctors and pristine social thinkers can explain why a person would chose to be homosexual when they can be discriminated, killed, abused, ostracized and constantly have to fight to survive then I might be more open to hear their side.
Homosexuality and Child Sexual Abuse:Science, Religion, and the Slippery Slope
http://www.internationalorder.org/scandalresponse.html
Facts About Homosexuality and Child Molestation
http://psychology.ucdavis.edu/rainbow/html/factsmolestation.html
This is an academic assertion from one of the leading teaching institutions in California not some biased religious based group.Recommend
@Abdul – You seemed to be stuck in the fuzzy brain drain that @Nighat Mishbah mentioned.
I think you missed her post by a long meter, being born into a religion is not compared to being born gay and committing any heinous crimes is a subject for another day.
I think @Nighat Mishbah is correct there is NO CREDIBLE evidence that being born gay is a choice is similar as to one being born with black or brown eyes we can assume and offer arguments but they ring shallow if you actually take time to talk and understand people from the gay community.Recommend
@owais khan:
Happy to accept it is a part of Islam or from Islam if you can produce some evidence from the Quran and Sunnah. Lets come up with evidence from Islam and spread awareness. Help us to come out of the cave please. Help us leave this regressive and medieval thinking and come to the world of liberation and enlightened moderation. Please!Recommend
I don’t know about the homosexual community but the incest and necrophilia guys must be so thrilled that the queue is finally moving at the UN.Recommend
@Nighat Mishbah:
Thank you for your reply Nighat. I accept the point you make about the potential for bias in the article as a source, however, I did make it clear that the ‘veracity’ of the information would need to be considered. I was simply arguing against your assertion that there is, quote ‘No evidence’ to support the claims that homosexuals are likely to be paedophiles. There clearly is some evidence albeit it potentially dubious.Recommend
Now it seems all this being gay is about “having fun” with similar gender and without the fuss n’ repercussions like unwanted babies, long term commitments, any hostility what-so-ever from the opposite sex jelled with independence. That’s why its being paraded and propagated by irresponsible individuals of society.
In Pakistan Gays/Lesbians are in small number they themselves lead a life under rocks and dens to hide their activities which they themselves know are immoral. Now yes they do exist but here but they shouldn’t what is need is a rehab for them. To get sorted out. That the only right they have they have to be treated. If they can’t be treated ship them off any western part. Its not a religion which ought to be respected and let it be practiced as it is. Its morality which is the same regardless any religion.
What the use of being gay or lesbian is the question?? Why Lust is must?? Whats the use of opposite gender if same sex can work? How in God’s green earth can a private matter of sexual intimacy remain private if its discussed on public forum ?Recommend
The thing have when you don’t have pedestrian rights, People get chopped down the roads on roads, When you don’t have rights for people to walk on roads you are always afraid of being killed either by a bomb or either by some terrorist with a freaking gun, I feel then how gay’s will get their rights?Recommend
Are there any gay or lesbian Animals?Recommend
Dude comeon, being a gay is totally different from attacking the culture Pakistan posses,But first who are you guys trying to follow? the Americans? the Big guys? or would you prefer what you are? I dont say no one likes gay people but it certainly conradicts with underlying of being a Muslim.I live in the UK but gay to me is all right as far he is not a Muslim. Islam preches respect, though even if you are gay, lesbian or straight, things will of course start messing up when you posses to be a Muslim.
Its totally allright if you love the same sex but then dont pretend to be a Muslim, guys, you cannot be what you are not, but you can be what you are.Islam will not be affected by what you posses to be, Islam is something eternal,If you can see the GOD closely through Islam you need to be a Muslim first and you all know Islam donot permit same sex violations.I donot discriminate you through sex but make your own community, rituals, and values, please dont spoil our culture or values or thoughts by pretending being a Muslim.People will accept you if you emerge as a seperate society with different values everyone will give you space if you want but if you would try to make space within Islam that would not be fair with us,our culture, our values.
Am not being a mullah but to be honest this sound obvious to me.Hope this doesnot offends you all, it is my preception over gays and lesbians.Recommend
It took more than a century by america to reach to this level where every kind of people can claim their freedom. How the hell can one say that its time to call for gay rights in Pakistan where basic democracy has been accepted yet. Let not put the cart before the horse .Recommend
@Straight – Your chain of thought is interesting if you live in the jungle of nowhere. If I am quoting you correctly you seem to have no problem with the gay community as long as they do not practice Islam. I think to be or not to be a Muslim is an individual right designed by our Creator and each of us will be judged at the end of our life. Interestingly do people who follow non-Islamic traditions in the UK or Pakistan should be allowed the same criticism as gay people?
@ticktock – Mouthing childish statements does not add this this intelligent dialogue that will affect us in our life time. There are some intelligent and thoughtful views that are backing their views with educational facts please try to take a clue from them.
@ali – You are correct it has taken America more than a century & they have still quite a road to travel but getting to this point the gay community have patiently and calm not hysteria debunked all the myths and mis-information that the religious community have tried to spread.
The most important is the same sex marriage, after Massachusetts allowed same sex marriage the religious scholars screamed that marriage as an institution would end. Well its been a some years now and traditional marriage has not fallen off the cliffs. Marriage in America has slowly been sliding down with a 48% divorce rate and that is with gay having anything to do with it.
Now with social media, and a 24 hour cycle new, we are more adept to see situations directly and make intelligent decisions and for Pakistan a newer country it is a dynamic start to have this conversation.Recommend
I simply don’t understand this:
Why do people have a problem with what 2 consenting adults do in their bedroom? Like seriously – what business is it theirs to mind other people’s bedroom activities?Recommend
it’s pathetic where are we heading for . . . . Pakistani society has two extremist Islamist and modern enlightenment who want these crap things . . . .Recommend
sucker punchRecommend
@Sabih:
As long as it stay in bed and the adults are married husband and wife.. who knows…who cares. but when all of sudden the adults are not married and try to justify their wrong doings? or get caught that’s when it gets started. Get it !??!Recommend
@Shahita Abbas:It’s called sarcasm my dear lady and if you had actually chanced upon a literary work in your giddy lifetime you might have noticed that people do tend to use it to convey opinions. That said, I will try and convey my point to you in a manner that the thought does not fly merrily over you head. What I was trying to say was that there has to be a line. Today it is homosexuality, tomorrow it could be Necrophilia as I mentioned above. And going by the “two consenting adults” line of thought what possible argument could you give to dissuade an individual whose partner, for example, has given his or her other half full sexual liberty over their dead body? Similarly, there’s incest, bestiality and many more products of sexual perversion that easily fit the criteria. Do you intend to fight for their rights as well?Recommend
@Fahad Raza – BTW who made you the judge about adults are not married and try to justify their wrong doings? @Sabihs point is very clear and definite why do you and others have an issue with two consenting adults in the privacy of their environrment are describing the conditions of a police state.The Taliban use the same lame excuse to deny women their right…but alas since your a male this would not apply to you!Recommend
@Usman Qureshi:
“I feel that your notion of a progressive society has no limits. If, as in the story of Equus, a man develops a sexual relationship with a horse, or any other animal for that matter (bestiality) and does so in the privacy of their own home, do you think that’s acceptable? In light of what you’ve said, I don’t see why not.”
I do NOT agree with what you said right there Usman. The reason why Beastiality would never be something that would be approved using logic and rationality, is because animals cannot express their opinions, or sign a marriage/commitment contract. What we are arguing for is two CONSENTING ADULTS living in a world where they are free to profess their love for each other, without any fear or reservation, irrespective of gender! This in NO way encourages or even suggests beastiality or underage sexual freedom. There is a VALID reason why both are considered to be crimes in the rule of law, for very similar reasons.Recommend
@kashif:
“In all the above comments, the biggest allegation on molvis is that they rape children. This means that there are lot of gay molvis in the mosques.
Result:
a. We should tolerate homosexuals in the society, however not in the mosques.
b. You cannot be a molvi and a gay at the same time.
c. If you befriend someone (and afterwards declare yourself Gay), Thats Good. But if you rape someone (and dont declare yourself gay), thats bad.”
First of all, anyone who HAS mentioned “RAPE” in Madrassas and mosques has emphasized on the hypocrisy of the “religious” rapist, focusing on the RAPE, the fact that it’s usually a child who is subjected to this torture, and lastly the fact that it is homosexual in nature which basically goes against everything the rapist preaches and CLAIMS to stand for. If there were two consenting male or female adults taking part in sexual activities in a mosque or a church, I would probably talk about the fact that EVERYONE should be more respectful to all places of worship, since it means so much to so many, and THIS tolerance really doesn’t harm anyone or infringe upon human rights.
Secondly, no one has said you can’t be a preacher and homosexual at the same time. There are many people on this very Blog who have bravely come out and stood up for themselves, and still believe in Islam, even if it’s not the twisted version the majority believes in.
Thirdly, befriending someone and declaring yourself gay, and then RAPING them is just as bad as RAPING someone and NOT declaring yourself to be gay! The issue is the RAPE, not whether it’s homosexual or heterosexual. Of course homosexual rape committed by people who are AGAINST homosexuality does pose a major contradiction, which is exactly what people have been highlighting.
Please don’t consider homosexuality to be synonymous with lust or rape or child molestation. There is no justification, or argument to be considered as a basis for it.Recommend
Hey remember the French veil banning issue discussed here in the blogs and comments, some people were of the view that those who are against the ban should move to the countries where veil ain’t banned. Let’s come with the same argument, rather than advocating their sexual freedom, the US embassy should transport all gays to their country. God forbid, if I ever have to have a gay relative, I’ll be happy to be rid of them in this manner.Recommend
@Sadaf Mujeeb:
Thank you for your reply Sadaf.
If we cannot use animals for sex because they don’t have the ability to express themselves, you are inferring that this is an abuse of their rights. You see herein lies the dilemma for the progressives more generally, but in this case who determines what the rights of animals are? Take for example riding horses, using cattle to plough the land, putting animals on a leash, caging them in zoos, etc. Have we asked animals if we can use them in this way? Is there a contract with them? Have they had a chance to express their opinions? You cannot have your cake and eat it Sadaf.
The same goes for relations with minors. Who determines what the age of a minor is? In Greece it is 15, in Italy it is 14 and in Spain it is 13. Most people would consider sexual relations with a 13 year old a crime, but in Spain it is no problem. In this case, you would be considered an extremist or at least a non-progressive in Spain, because you have traditional views on underage sexual freedom. They don’t agree with your VALID logic and don’t consider it a crime, so who decides what the boundaries are? Again, I reiterate, a progressive society has no limits, because it bases its concept of morality on the whims of humans, which are continuously subject to change.Recommend
@Sadaf Mujeeb: Like it or not, underage sexual escapades are part of the homosexualtiy package. Extending the argument from where Usman’s link left off you will find that many students from male single sex boarding institutes will corroborate what that study states. There is a grotesque amount of preference for hairless pre-pubescent white-skinned boys and saying that homosexuality and paedophilia are two independant affairs is baseless.
As for bestiality, animals may not be capable of expressing their opinions but they are capable of emotions like loyalty and love. And if an animal loves its master regardless of the sexual act what possible argument do you extend then? Would you say that you know the animal’s wants and needs better than itself?Recommend
@ Rabayl Mazoor
So much for the blog you tagged!
They have written back to say they actually do not support homosexuality in Islam: http://gaymuslims.org/2011/06/28/oops/
Next time try reading before referring to what Google throws at you!!Recommend
@jawed khalid:
You claimed “homosexuality is not a disease as the fundoos like to believe,just as allah creates hetorosexuals so he creates homosexuals,”
Homosexuality is not a creation of Allah!Had that been true then he would’nt have crafted two separate genders,who complement each other with their own totally exclusive physical characteristics and features…The biggest difference made by Allah between a man and a woman is of womb! My question to you in this regard would be “Can a man give birth to a baby from his stomach and or could a woman without fornicating with a man give the same result” ?
Secondly,it is a medically proven fact that homosexuality compared to hetrosexual sexual relationships between members of the same sex expose gays, lesbians and bisexuals to extreme risks of Sexually Transmitted Diseases (STDs), physical injuries, mental disorders and even a shortened life span. There are five major distinctions between gay and heterosexual relationships, with specific medical consequences. They are: ..
Levels of Promiscuity
1) Prior to the AIDS epidemic, a 1978 study found that 75 percent of white, gay males claimed to have had more than 100 lifetime male sex partners: 15 percent claimed 100-249 sex partners; 17 percent claimed 250-499; 15 pe…rcent claimed 500- 999; and 28 percent claimed more than 1,000 lifetime male sex partners. Levels of promiscuity subsequently declined, but some observers are concerned that promiscuity is again approaching the levels of the 1970s. The medical consequence of this promiscuity is that gays have a greatly increased likelihood of contracting HIV/AIDS, syphilis and other STDs…
Similar extremes of promiscuity have not been documented among lesbians. However, an Australian study found that 93 percent of lesbians reported having had sex with men, and lesbians were 4.5 times more likely than heterosexual women to have had more than 50 lifetime male sex partners. Any degree of sexual promiscuity carries the risk of contracting STDs…
2) Physical Health
Common sexual practices among gay men lead to numerous STDs and physical injuries, some of which are virtually unknown in the heterosexual population. Lesbians are also at higher risk for STDs. In addition to diseases that m…ay be transmitted during lesbian sex, a study at an Australian STD clinic found that lesbians were three to four times more likely than heterosexual women to have sex with men who were high-risk for HIV….
3)Mental Health
It is well established that there are high rates of psychiatric illnesses, including depression, drug abuse, and suicide attempts, among gays and lesbians. This is true even in the Netherlands, where gay, lesbian and bisexual …(GLB) relationships are far more socially acceptable than in the U.S. Depression and drug abuse are strongly associated with risky sexual practices that lead to serious medical problems…
4) Life Span
The only epidemiological study to date on the life span of gay men concluded that gay and bisexual men lose up to 20 years of life expectancy…
Kindly refer to this link for elaborating on the above mentioned medical problems faced by homosexuals..
The Health Risks of Gay Sex JOHN R. DIGGS, JR., M.D. http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/homosexuality/ho0075.htmlRecommend
I personally strongly suspect that religion is being politicized in the US and EU by their leaders…The Islam phobia is being used as a tool, since the 9/11…
Inview of the aforesaid reason it was the blasphemy law which was targeted and triggered to target …Islamic Sharia laws..Huge prominence was given by their media and their top leadership in the incidence of a Christian woman who was arrested in Pakistan,in the recent past and tried for having commited blesphemy.The chain of events which followed as a reaction with Governor Salman Taseer’s assissination and later of the Minister for Minority Affairs Mr.Bhatti,continue today to be orchestrated at all forums.Just yesterday,the US ambassador in Pakistan,Mr.Munter,while delivering a speech in a function held to celebrate his countrys independence day made it a point to mention specially the aforesaid deceased Pakistanis and journalist deceased Saleem Shezad name as the one’s who gave their lives standing up for human rights.Sadly.he never remembered to recall those Pakistani 350000 civilian men,women and children and 10000 military/security personnels,who fell martyr fighting their so-called war on terrorism which according to them is being fought to make the world a safer place to live!…
In short the point ,I wish to make is that the act of holding the function under discussion in this post is part and parcel of the same game/conspiracy to portray Muslims image as extremists and that to prove Islamic laws as discriminatory,harsh and inhuman, basically for the consumption of their own people back home,who according to a Gallup poll held there states that” in the last 10 years, the number of Americans saying they feel homosexuality should be considered an acceptable alternative lifestyle has gone from 38% (June 1992) to 51% (May 2002)” http://www.gallup.com/poll/6961/what-percentage-population-gay.aspx. Thus what they wish to derive of such stunts and publicity is to create more resentments amongst them and gain their support for their wars unleashed in the Muslim bloc…I really dont think we should play into their trap and react but should just ignore it ever happened…The more we react the more they succeed in their nefarious designs!Recommend
P.S…The Hijab/burka/veil banning and that of the minarets are all glaring example of their political game to target Muslims and Islam and gain support of their people for what they are doing in Muslim bloc is justifiable by their standards!..Recommend
@ticktock I think sarcasm is what it is when people have knowledge what idiotic line they are trying to push. You sound like the conservative religious Republicans in America
Rick Santorum in 2002 described the ability to regulate consensual homosexual acts as comparable to the states’ ability to regulate other consensual and non-consensual sexual behavior, such as adultery, polygamy, child molestation, incest, sodomy, and bestiality, whose decriminalization he believed would threaten society and the family, as they are not monogamous and heterosexual. Americans condemned the statements as homophobic and bigoted and Mr.Santorum lost his seat and has tried but never be re-elected.
The old tired argument of people that – incest – bestiality – pedophilia rights will follow if gay rights are approved rings to shallow years, I dare you to name one country in the world where there is a group of people organizing to set these rights in motion. This pathetic mantra was tried and tested in the 80′s by religious factions where they tried to shock the general public to get the feeble minded to believe in these shenanigans. But the decent knowledgeable people clearly saw through this bogus claim.
Does incest – bestiality – pedophilia exist in the world, it sure does but most of the time these heinous acts are committed by those who are in the anti-gay camp and desperately trying to deny gay people their rights.Recommend
No, there won’t be any time for g** rights in Pakistan, and if it happen to, Pakistan won’t last long… (though it is happening among elite), I simply can not understand people are trying to get a debate on such a topic just to create room for this crap. I know, what enlightened moderates take my views as, a hardliner or you may call Fundamentalist, yes I am!Recommend
“Homosexuality is not a creation of Allah!”
No, no, it was created without Allah’s will. Because you know, things don’t really happen according to Allah’s will…right?Recommend
@Shahita Abbas:
Shahita, you strike me as being an intelligent person, yet I feel that you’re consistently missing the point. What we are not proposing is that there will be a wave of incest, bestiality and paedophilia; these immoral acts are already taking place.
What we are saying is that in your fight for homosexuality to become morally recognised by the state, you are necessarily opening the flood gates for general acts of immorality to be accepted wholesale. I go back to the argument of Spain’s legal age of consent being 13. While the UK does not accept it and Spain does, this leaves us with a moral disparity. You often make the point that homosexuals ADULTS should be able to have open relationships, which means that you believe that children don’t have the ability to make informed choices about relationships; clearly, the Spanish government believe that 13 year olds do have that ability. You see, your position becomes untenable.
If a group of expert veterinary doctors can establish that animals are not distressed by a human being having a sexual relationship with them, surely there is a case, however crazy, for people who like to engage in this behaviour to be able to do so legally.
Summarising, I suppose what we have to ask is, why should individuals have the authority to decide on matters of morality? People of faith defer all moral authority to God. The progressives will never be able claim moral authority in anything; yours is a relativist paradigm. It’s disingenuous for you to say that homosexuality is morally acceptable while incest is not for example. If an adult brother and sister are consenting sexual partners, why should we condemn them? You will probably offer biological and social arguments against the act of incest (and i’d agree), but I could, and have offered a similar argument for homosexuals in a previous post.
I hope you can appreciate where we’re coming from.
ThanksRecommend
@Usman Qureshi:
“Take for example riding horses, using cattle to plough the land, putting animals on a leash, caging them in zoos, etc. Have we asked animals if we can use them in this way? Is there a contract with them? Have they had a chance to express their opinions? You cannot have your cake and eat it Sadaf.”
I’m afraid you have assumed that I am in favor of all the things you’ve mentioned above Usman, when that isn’t the case. I am a vegetarian, who has very recently converted to veganism. I do not believe in keeping animals caged for ANY purpose unless it’s to help them (for treatment etc), and am definitely AGAINST using them as entertainment. I do not believe in vivisection, even though many argue that it is the reason for major human progress. In my opinion progress based on suffering, human OR ANIMAL, is progress made at the expense of human character. I truly BELIEVE in equality for ALL beings. I do NOT believe in capital punishment even for a self-confessed murderer, I BELIEVE in even a terrorist have the right to a fair trial and a defense. I do BELIEVE that it is worrisome that we as a society are more comfortable in seeing two men holding guns than holding hands.
“The same goes for relations with minors. Who determines what the age of a minor is? In Greece it is 15, in Italy it is 14 and in Spain it is 13. Most people would consider sexual relations with a 13 year old a crime, but in Spain it is no problem. In this case, you would be considered an extremist or at least a non-progressive in Spain, because you have traditional views on underage sexual freedom.”
I agree with your description of a progressive society as ever-changing Usman (even though I reject the idea that it is based on the WHIMS of people) but I also do not consider that to be a BAD thing. Change, when brought about for the “common good”, is POSITIVE change. Social and legal attitudes towards the appropriate age of consent have drifted UPWARD in modern times; while ages from ten through to thirteen were typically acceptable in the mid 19th century, fifteen through eighteen had become the norm in many countries by the end of the 20th century. Making people wait for the right time to engage in a sexual act is HARDLY worthy of being considered to be cause of suffering or infringement of their rights. CONDEMNING people, from engaging in a healthy loving relationship which might or might not include sexual intimacy, altogether however DOES. I assume that everyone, even some people in Spain consider 13 to be an extremely inappropriate age of consent, just like many people in Pakistan (rightly) consider the age of 16 to be an inappropriate age for a girl to be married.
The rules laid down by a government or judiciary are not an indication of the mentality of the country’s majority, or it’s situation. The fact that an age of consent is set to be 18 in a country does not suggest that 18 is the BEST age for people to engage in sexual acts or get married. It is merely an age where if people DO engage in such an act or a commitment WILLINGLY, it will not lead to any criminal consequences and will be considered LEGAL. The age of consent is thus implemented for the protection of minors, children who are too young to be considered mentally ABLE or worthy of making decisions that concern giving up something that is not replaceable, who are easily manipulated, who are impressionable and do not have the knowledge or experience to make an informed decision. These are not MY notions, these are facts that are backed up by evidence and reason, and have come about through years and years of research and observations by philosophers, psychologists, sociologists and lawmakers alike.
I implore you all to see reason and find it in your hearts to accept the love that people want to share with each other. You don’t have to like it, or follow it, you don’t even have to encourage it, but I do ask that you tolerate it. There is NO SANE GOD that will burn you for eternity for “tolerating” love and affection.Recommend
@Shahita Abbas:
Ever heard of an organisation called NAMBLA? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NorthAmericanMan/BoyLoveAssociationRecommend
@Shahita Abbas
Rick Santorum is a hate-monger who also believes that “Islamic fascism rooted in Iran is behind much of the world’s conflict”. George Galloway pointed this out to a homophobic British Muslim caller on his radio program.
Recommend
How uglier can the world get? Self-chosen Homosexuality is illegitimate by all degrees. And to sift the “naturally born” from the “Gay by choice” is an impossibly difficult ordeal. By passing laws protecting homosexuals, the world is permitting many to adopt unhealthy and unnatural lifestyles which may only exacerbate societal degeneration. Think about it!!Recommend
@Shahita Abbas:
Ok looks like you wouldn’t care if one of your own relative is doing that even if not married??? Would that be ok then ?? If you don’t then its useless talking to you as that would be saying its ok to have such relationship…they having some fun that. What if your brother or hubby is caught doing that would that be ok ?? No way that same rule applies to the society. and speakin of taliban what they did was wrong yes in under educating their women etc etc. but no men or women has a right to cheat of their family.
@Loneliberal PK:
You said and I quote
“Homosexuality is not a creation of Allah!”
No, no, it was created without Allah’s will. Because you know, things don’t really happen according to Allah’s will…right?
I think you dont know that ALLAH SWT gave us choice of what to be. if we pick ember we get burnt and if pick ice we get the freeze. There fore if all of a sudden one finds attraction in similar sex he has a choice to go for whats ODD/WRONG or to stop for whats normal/right.
Obviously same sex orientation is choice against being straight when it comes to sex.Recommend
Look I have complete respect for human rights and I wish homosexuals luck in earning their rights but in Pakistan, people can not stomach an idea of two men or women living happily ever after.
Hell, people in this so called Islamic Republic think women are sex toys, children are fleas, hindus are dirty, Ahmedis are wajib ul qatal and Israel is conspiring to destroy us. Can you imagine the furor at the very mention of an idea that lets legalize homosexuals?
There will be riots and unprecedented level of attacks on suspects like known gays, transgenders, men who are have feminine characteristics and on heterosexuals who support homosexuals.
So whats the solution. YOU CAN NOT SIMPLY SAY JUST LEGALIZE GAYS
there has to be a slow, long process where first our awaam gets educated, informed about law, civil rights, constitution and humanity. Then gays themselves would have to show that they are nor ogres and ‘amreeki’ agents. And this will happen after 20 years but not nowRecommend
Homosexual and bisexual people have always been around in Pakistan. I know in Karachi there are a lot of meeting places for gays, where the silently gather without making a lot of hoopla. Plus there haven’t been any acts of violence against these people as far as I can remember. No bombs and shootings in Gay bars like US here. We have a very effective, what the Americans call DADT (dont ask dont tell) kind of thing going here which I believe is the best possible scenario one can hope for in a country like Pakistan. I think people who consider themselves to be the leaders of Gay rights in Pakistan are doing their country and community a great harm by this kind of in your face festivals. The US embassy as usual displays the signature arrogant, self righteous and plain idiotic style of American diplomacy by roiling up another controversy in Pakistan which already has a fair share of problems to deal with. Now these worthless Mullahs of JI, JUI, SSP etc will use this event to exacerbate their conspiracy theory politics and rallies and what not.
So my advise to the organizers of this meeting would be to rethink their strategy. You can never get the kind of rights LGBT people have in Europe. Those who belong to the elites will not suffer much but their actions will result in a witch hunt against their fellow community. You can poke your finger at the Mullahs in the name of being liberals and getting rave reviews in western press, but that certainly wont help your cause.Recommend
Looking at an issue thought the lens of “rights-talk” is one way for marginalized groups to get a fairer deal, but it has its pros and cons. To make a long story short, the concept of rights originates from legal discourse and as such it suffers from all the pitfalls of looking at the world through a lawyerly mind’s eye. It also tends to depoliticize struggles that have widespread emotional and moral appeal, reducing them, intentionally or not, to juridical pettifoggery. My question to the majority of posters here is that quite apart from any amendments in the penal code regarding treatment of gay people, what would their reaction be if they found out that someone they know and regard well is gay? Would they:
a) Break contacts this person?
b) Tell them to pay heed to the fate of “Qaum-i-Loot”?
c) Advise them to get psychiatric help to get over this “phase” of their lives?
d) Get married (and thereby bring pain and misery instead of happiness to someone else)?
e Hold up the example of self-abnegating monks?
Some are going to treat gay people as pariahs no matter what, but what should most people who mean well and want to reduce the amount of hate and misery in the world do? It may well be that it’ll be decades before any legal changes come about, but what about the meantime? Should people simply turn a blind eye toward anyone who they find out is gay, per usual Pakistani practice, and/or indulge in the cultural practice of shunning these individuals, who might otherwise be well-adjusted and productive members of society?Recommend
Being a straight-acting and masculine guy, still I always liked guys. Its perhaps in my genes. Ever since I have learnt to speak, I have liked the guys! Do you think a 5 years old child to be a sinner? I even didnt know what sex is at that time. It is a time to understand what gayism is. It is not doing sin all the time. It is a quite serious issue. Being gay doesnt mean that someone has a license to do sins. In the same way being a heterosexual doesnt mean that one has a right to do sins. But the Mullahs and heterosexuals would not imagine what this feeling is. It is quite easy to issue Fatwas and to declare gayism as a “abnormality” but it is not abnormality. Many many animals have a natural tendency toward homosexuality. So when plants do it, when animals do it then if a human does it then it would be quite natural. Yes it is haram in our religion but when it is inside your very self then how one can stop it??? The best thing to control it!Recommend
@Sadaf Mujeeb:
“Change, when brought about for the “common good”, is POSITIVE change”
I completely agree with this statement Sadaf, at last! ;-) But tell me, where is the common good in trying to CHANGE a society’s notions about homosexuality? How do we collectively benefit from homosexuals fooling around with each other? The reality is that we don’t and in fact, previous posts will outline that there is immense harm in legalising homosexuality and not an iota of benefit. The principle that you’ve outlined above is fundamental to ensuring the social and moral well-being of any society and should be the basis of our discussions.
“There is NO SANE GOD that will burn you for eternity for “tolerating” love and affection.”
God will not punish us for tolerating love and affection, but He will punish us for tolerating something that He does not tolerate.Recommend
Open up your eyes, ears and hearts you gay people. Gay is a no no anywhere on earth and the whole universe. Its prohibited in Islam which is the final religion for mankind to follow till the end of times. Our creator has prohibited it and the only reason people of Loot (A.S.) were destroyed was because they were gay. I hope and pray all gay people on earth are shown the right path and they give up these shameful and forbidden acts and relations. I don’t hate the gay but the shameful and forbidden acts and relations they have.Recommend
Homosexuality is a sin and if any one of you has studied islamic history you would find that a nation was destroyed by the Angels by order of Allah for this sin…Recommend
i dont think we have reached a position to move for gay rights in pakistan although they do deserve the rights. this would only attract more negative attention to a relatively silent issue. it is very easy to talk about all this in a zamzama cafe but reality pakistan as we all know is much harsher.Recommend
It is interesting the tributaries this discussion has taken. One of the constant baseless point is that allowing gay rights will open the flood gates to – incest…bestiality..& pedophilia. Let me remind those that oppose it because of religious reason. The Roman Catholic church has been the loudest voice across the world in opposing gay rights. They love the sinner (gays) but hate the sin (Homosexuality)…but yet the Catholic church has the greatest number of Priests who have molested children in recent history. Any intelligent person would query that no one blames the Church but yet when these molestation incident were reported the Church in it ultimate glory ignored and transferred these pedophile-priests to other locations where the access to children continued. This was not just Priests but higher institution of the priesthood.
America compared to the rest of Europe has been slow in initiating gay rights. Their DADT(don’t ask don’t tell) policy to ban gays military.was a huge loss to a military that depends on volunteer participation & thousands of very talented men and women were discharged. Most of Europe including conservative Israel have gays in the Military. One of the lame arguments… Straight soldiers will not shower or sleep in the same barracks as gays. Mixing gay troops with straights will weaken a unit’s cohesion.
Just look arguments from the 40s, and replaced “white” with “straight” and “African-American” with “gay.” The same was made by religious factions when blacks and whites were not allowed to marry and inter-racial unions were considered a sin. Now America is struggling with same-sex marriage and again the religious heavyweights – Christians-Catholics-Muslims-Mormon-Jews have formed a stronghold to deny gays the rights of marriage and adoption. But the tide is turning with the recent passage in New York the country is ready to accept same sex unions and the sky has not fallen !
The general nation that being gay is just about the physical sex side is a total fabrication, gays have the same worries as their heterosexual counterparts have, there are gay teachers, doctors, scientists, engineers. When society was shocked allowing a gay couple to raise a child meant that the child’s orientation would turn gay but studies show that most gay couple have raised children that turned out heterosexual which proves to a greater point that homosexuality is NOT A CHOICE!
Many advocated that gays should not marry because procreation was a result of marriage but what about heterosexual couples that cannot procreate? should they be denied the rights of marriage? Same sex marriage has not & will not harm the sanctity of marriage this is another bogus argument from religious scholars. Traditional marriage has been falling at least in the west for decade and gay people are NOT the reason.
When people question if Allah would accept homosexuals ask your self if he made each one of us in His likeness would he create a group of people the rest of us could easily discriminate, abuse and bash?Recommend
@Shahita Abbas: First, a little structural coherence would be nice. Second, what the Catholic Church does is its business. My opposition to homosexuality rests soloely on my set of beliefs; I couldn’t care less if the Catholic Church supported it or not.Second, homosexuality is a human failure. Being homosexual does that mean that you have an I.Q. of 60 or you have become some sort of paraplegic.Third, are you honestly comparing the civil rights movements of African American’s to this? In case you’ve forgetten, the first man to ever give an adhaan was a black man (Hazrat Bilal. And this was more than 1300 years before the thought finally hit the Klu Klan rednecks in America. So, no. The black movement is not the same as the homosexual one. Fourth, I suggest you back the claim of homosexuality not being a choice because the last time I checked the scientific community still considers it a mix between birth and brought. And lastly, I can understand why this is an emotional issue for you but I implore you to think on the matter with a clear head and research further on the “why?” is it not allowed in Islam. Consult a proper classical scholar of Islam and get his reasoning behind it.Recommend
@Shahita Abbas
:)
assuming everyone agrees with your point
just one answer required – and remember- u will be answering on a very delicate matter!!!
Y WAS QOUM-E-LUT DESTROYED DUE TO HOMOSEXUALITY????
we know there was no forced homosexuality there- it would be highly appreciable if u go through the history and answer this!Recommend
Thanks SohaibRecommend
There will be no more time for gays and lesbians to continue their homosexuality and dirty concepts..who says that islam teached this i’ll say that Allah (S.A.W.W.) got angry and put Azzaaab on Qaum e loot because of homosexualityRecommend
@Swish – Please be very clear differentiating between “comparing” and “equating” the struggles of civil rights for the general black population and the general gay and lesbian population. This is usually the fulcrum in a conversation on gay civil rights where any further discussion begins to deteriorate. For all the many obvious differences, there does exist similarities which all boil down to wanting to be free of oppression and treated fairly, a right due to any human regardless of race, religion. sex, and sexual orientation.
This mind come as a brain shock...the beautiful thing about homosexuality is that it’s embedded in every culture on the planet. I as a professor of human studies have left my religious mantra at the door and dealt with humanity not tear-jerk emotion. @Swish you might not care about the Roman Catholic Church but you missed the greater point is that religious teaching and reality do not always mesh.
Is gay a choice or is one born? This highly debated issue constantly appears when gay rights are involved.
he National Cancer Institute’s Laboratory of Biochemistry reported in the journal Science that families of 76 gay men included a much higher proportion of homosexual male relatives than found in the general population. Intriguingly, almost all the disproportion was on the mother’s side of the family. That prompted the researchers to look at the chromosomes that determine gender, known as X and Y. Men get an X from their mother and a Y from their father; women get two X’s, one from each parent. Inasmuch as the family trees suggested that male homosexuality may be inherited from mothers, the scientists zeroed in on the X chromosome.
Sure enough, a separate study of the DNA from 40 pairs of homosexual brothers found that 33 pairs shared five different patches of genetic material grouped around a particular area on the X chromosome. Why is that unusual? Because the genes on a son’s X chromosome are a highly variable combination of the genes on the mother’s two X’s, and thus the sequence of genes varies greatly from one brother to another. Statistically, so much overlap between brothers who also share a sexual orientation is unlikely to be just coincidence. The fact that 33 out of 40 pairs of gay brothers were found to share the same sequences of DNA in a particular part of the chromosome suggests that at least one gene related to homosexuality is located in that region. Homosexuality was the only trait that all 33 pairs shared; the brothers didn’t all share the same eye color or shoe size or any other obvious characteristic. Nor, according to the study’s principal author, Dean Hamer, were they all identifiably effeminate or, for that matter, all macho. They were diverse except for sexual orientation. Says Hamer: “This is by far the strongest evidence to date that there is a genetic component to sexual orientation.
This is never an emotional matter, as Homosexuality is indigenous to all humankind. Universal and enduring. It doesn’t matter what family structure, religion or region you come from. The difference through the ages is how homosexuality was RESPONDED and struggle has different issues but at the core of each struggle was the fight to have the basic rights of the majority when the majority says you can’t because you don’t fit into what they deem as normal. You’re different therefore you’re not worthy of the same rights that I have? IRecommend
@Shahita Abbas:
“The general nation that being gay is just about the physical sex side is a total fabrication,”
Elaborate…!!Recommend
@Fahad Raza – You want me to elaborate….so here it is:
Actualy, might it not be that the act of sex is the only difference from a hetrosexual relationship? and so that’s what people’s minds get stuck on? Love is the same regardless of gender, cooking dinner and eating together is the same. cleaning the floor is done the same way. Shareing your good and bad times and supporting each-other is the same regardless of the gender of your partner. Hell, even raising children (or choosing not to) would be the same don’t you think?.
So the sexual act would be the only thing “not like how we do it” anyone with half a brain cell could find.
Of course I’m sure there are people stupid enough to wonder how two men manage to clean the dishes, and how two females manage to live in a male oriented society like Pakistan but I’m not sure people that trapped in their own stereotypes would try to seem supportive.Recommend
I am gay, I live in Islamabad, and I probably have the best sex life, and I do not face much discrimination.
It’s pretty much DADT here, and it works great for most of us gay people around here.Recommend
Humbly to all my Dear Friends:
USA accepts gays and lesbians for immigration under asylum category after throughly examining the orientation so i humbly request you all to Get the hell out of my country. We have already too much on our plate right now to look at your ‘holey’ issues!!!
If you are so desperate to get rights start with abolishing child slavery, corruption and bribery in this country…..you will soon eough understand that your problem is the least important at present. Go get a life!!!
Rabayl, you are a good writer, please focus on issues that might actually help in making the masses realize their potential and role in the future development of this country rather then making them proud to be queer!!Recommend
If you ask me, this feels like nothing more than a Press Release as a part of a Public Relations campaign for the Pro-Gay Lobbyists among Pakistan’s elite. I am guessing the writer is clearly a Liberal Fascists, like we do not need religious fascists, we do not need liberal one’s either.Recommend
Me thinks the writer is just a confused Burger Bachee from DHA who has nothing but a gazillion out of everything here, so hence she is promoting her brand of burgerish westernism, if you are so obsessed with picking up things from Western culture, why not pick up and talk about the good things we can learn, instead of promoting the ludicrous concepts from the West like so called Gay rights, next thing your going say legalize incest, legalize cannibalism,etcRecommend
@shah g:
Yes they were. It is a natural inclination. Straight people are attracted to opposite sex, gay people are attracted to people of the same sex. Gay behaviors has been even observed in animals. Its sickening to me that what has been proved by science again and again (read a journal if you must) that sexual orientation is not a choice but you are born with it, is still not understood by people.
In your case you are straight and just the thought of being with the person of the same sex is sickening to you similarly for a gay person the thought of being someone from the opposite sex is something that cannot happen. Yet there are millions within us who continue to do so just because of fear of being shunned by the society and turned down by those who we love.
Being gay is what you are born with. Your brain is naturally attracted to someone from the same sex. You suppressing that feeling is not only cheating to who you are but also you are future ‘opposite sex’ spouse who you would be forced to marry becase of societal norms!Recommend
@Muhammad Yasin:
please see yourself out that door over there, thanks.Recommend
In Pakistan Nobody has any Rights. Why humans only Pakistan haven’t rights for any Creature… Here everybody is for Snatching the rights of other person….Recommend
@Sohaib:
I endorse what you have said. Quran is absolute, the words will remain tills the day of Judgement.
Whereas ideas that emerges due to Reasons and Thinking are theroies bound to be changed some time in future because, they are depended on time and space. Any thing that is depended on these frame of reference are bound to change. Allah (Suban u Tallah) does not depend on Time and space. He is absolute, He was there when nothing existed will be there forever,therefore anythig which comes from Him is Absolute, forever, without any change, will stay till Allah (Suban u Tallah) wills. Therefore any theory which contradicts Quran is unaccepable to Muslims, no matter how great the forum of this world endorse it or the corrupt rulers signs it. We as Muslim adhere to the words of Quran for ultimate results not the words of UN.Recommend