Dear Indian patriots, my criticism of Pakistan isn’t for your benefit!

Published: October 28, 2013

A Pakistani liberal and an Indian patriot can become good friends. After all, they both bash Pakistan.

A signature feature of a liberal is his scathing, almost treacherous, criticism of his own country’s culture and political policies.  On the other hand, the mark of a nationalist is indiscriminately defending all that occurs on his side of the border, while flinging mud on those beyond. Hence, it isn’t difficult to understand why a Pakistani liberal and an Indian nationalist would naturally bond over a cup of coffee.

Ever since I decided to ‘betray’ my homeland by consorting with the liberal folk, as some conservatives would put it, my list of Indian friends has been snowballing. I am not in any way insinuating that they like me simply because I denounce the traditional maltreatment of women and minorities in my country, as well as the rising extremism in Pakistan. After all, they are all exceptionally rational people.

I have, however, been ignoring an increasing number of friend requests on Facebook from Indian nationalists. They seem to have misconstrued my constructive criticism of Pakistani affairs, as a deliberate service to the anti-Pakistan, ‘hand-of-ISI-in-everything’ ideological machinery.

Although I stand committed to what I write, it is distressing to know that someone has been digging into my blogs to gather informational ammo against my country, and use it in ways that I have never intended for it to be used. On the contrary, my objective as a Pakistan-bashing Pakistani, is to shed light on socio-political problems so that they can be rectified, and progress can be made. The way I see it, staying mum would mean guaranteeing their continuity, and the unchecked devastation that they would bring.

Therefore, my objective is not to deliver smug satisfaction to malicious elements, and help reinforce their biases.

These biases and consequent bashing, run both ways. Just recently, while Indian liberals were loudly and rightly, condemning the rape culture in their home country, some Pakistani flag-wavers were feeding off those diatribes and regurgitating them at Pakistani liberals known to admire India.

Moreover, the problem becomes especially apparent when certain Indians advocating secularism for Pakistan, become unflinchingly defensive about discriminatory laws in some Indian states, or objectionable moves by their own right-wing groups.

So, if you keep liking, upping, and recommending liberals’ on-line comments decrying restrictions on selling chardonnay in Pakistan, I shall assume you are also against religion-inspired laws restricting beef production and trade in India. Likewise, if you applaud our support for our local liberal heroes and nemeses of the status quo, like Asma Jahangir, then you shouldn’t be caught off guard when we extend the same respect to Arundhati Roy.

As if the ordeal of trying to push liberal ideas through the right-wing cacophony was not enough, liberals often find themselves being re-tweeted by outspoken Pakistan-haters, and then have to explain their controversial fan-following to angry countrymen. I imagine that Indian liberals would feel uneasy as well, if an acerbic Pakistani jingoist unilaterally allies himself with them.

So this is what I have to say:

“Dear Indian friends, it’s one thing when we condemn something of our own; it’s quite another when you pile on to that condemnation.”

Just like when my kid sister calls me chubby, it is endearing; but when a stranger points and laughs, it becomes awkward. Simply put, it is not that this person cannot safely voice his negative opinions, but common propriety demands just a wee bit more diplomacy than what is expected from one’s own sibling.

Clearly, this goes both ways.

Moreover, it is usually not enough to just learn about the crises next door. One must keep an eye on the situation at home where lessons learnt from across the border may be applied. After all, the odds are that the problems on one side are, in some form or the other, being mirrored across the picket-fence.

Faraz Talat

Faraz Talat

A medical doctor and bubble-wrap enthusiast from Rawalpindi, who writes mostly about science and social politics (and bubble-wrap). He tweets @FarazTalat (twitter.com/FarazTalat)

The views expressed by the writer and the reader comments do not necessarily reflect the views and policies of The Express Tribune.

  • Noman Ansari
  • Noman Ansari
  • Xubair Sheikh

    Excellent Piece !!Recommend

  • Unknown

    Welcome back to reality :)Recommend

  • Jahanzaib Haque

    Fantastic piece! A good read.Recommend

  • BlackJack

    Ok, I’ll bite. I don’t know if I fall within this particular sub-group (having always disliked labels) but since I consider myself a patriotic Indian and DO like the blogs, posts and comments made by people like you, @ Noman Ansari, @ Jahanzaib Haque, and several others, for the purpose of this subject, let’s say that I do. However, I feel no joy in seeing anyone insult their country, just as I find no great delight in reading posts by several navel gazers that we have on either side of the border.

    The problem I see in your argument is that liberal and nationalist are, to you, discrete sets and never the twain shall meet; this is not the case. I am all for secular education, equality for all, human rights (all humans), reducing carbon footprint, anti-drone strikes, increased people-to-people contact to reduce cross-border tensions, affirmative action to reduce inequalities in society, elimination of artificial social stratification through caste and religion, and several other so-called liberal causes; at the same time, I feel that Kashmir is an inalienable part of India, Siachen is on the right (pun intended) side of a line drawn towards north from point NJ 9842, and subscribe to Teddy Roosevelt’s ideology for global politics (speak softly, but carry a big stick). What I find a bit annoying is your tendency to try and create equivalences that don’t exist to explain why you (as in some Pakistanis) don’t agree with us – and this is true with both the tree-hugging liberals and the saber-rattling conservatives. In this blog, you’ve managed to do that by equating Asma Jehangir and Arundhati Roy. Pls do some unbiased reading into both these people and the causes that they have been associated with and what they have actually ACHEIVED (and not just that they have an anti-establishment stand). I think you insult Ms. Jehangir by equating her with Arundhati Roy – I would have preferred at the very least, a Binayak Sen (also controversial, but at least not a standing joke – do read up) as a more credible example.
    To summarize, I don’t believe that India is the cat’s whiskers and perfect in every way – we have millions (seriously) of problems that will take decades to eliminate; however, I also believe that we have less problems than Pakistan because there is no outdated and divisive core ideology that demands our loyalty. Too bad if that means we can’t be friends on facebook :).Recommend

  • SM

    My dear Pakistani friend, I am sorry to hear that you are very distressed to get too many friend requests from Indians “nationalists”, as you have put it. Just to be clear, I too see myself as a liberal minded Indian citizen. However, your notion of being a liberal is a bit distressing to me. Criticizing ones own country does not make one liberal, if you think that it does then you are fairly mistaken. A person is liberal minded, who stands for free speech, human rights (by default it includes religious freedom), democracy, women rights, free market capitalism, individual freedom, gay rights, etc etc. Do you notice what is the key link here that binds all of those notions together? Minding ones own business and letting others mind theirs. Therefore your example of Arundhati Roy as someone who is liberal is frankly grotesque! She stands for big government, and then criticize it for being big, irony ha! That is what passes these days for being “liberal” is just shameful! But I understand where you are coming from, because she criticizes India and therefore a big hit in Pakistan, but as I have stated above, it does not give her a badge of being a liberal. Similarly if you find yourself as a liberal, just for criticizing Pakistan, you would not get you very far, no matter what you might think of your own “liberal” views about yourself. I do empathise with you since any views on personal liberty is almost blasphemy in your country, but then if you are offended that too many Indians have given you moral support, for whatever reasons and thus making you look bad in your own country, I wonder how liberal that makes you since you clearly are a nationalist, just a tad less severe. Who might like the Idea of Invading India (maybe even like the Kashmir Jihad) and hoping to listen to Radio Pakistan from Delhi and a green crescent on Red Fort, just not go do it oneself. Therefore, you can come out now and be whatever you want, as a liberal myself, I wont mind.
    Best wishes for that medical degree you are pursing, I hope you at least believe in evolution (for the sake of your future patients), if not other lofty ideas of liberty.
    SMRecommend

  • Parvez

    Now, if there was a neat bit of diplomatic writing…………this is it.
    As you so rightly point out that this malady afflicts both of us, and each will claim that the other is more affected.
    I have a feeling that some bright spark will venture an explanation as to why this is so and that would make for interesting reading……and diplomacy would most likely go out the window.Recommend

  • Indian Fundamentalist

    If you say you r liberal coz you support Arundhati roy then I highly suspect your credibility.I m no liberal a Hindu nationalist but i too understand how difficult is this terminology.She has misused freedom of speech against Kashmiri Pandit.She even gave excuse to Ajmal kasab by saying that Kasab was direct result of atrocity committed in valley.You cant compare her with Ashma Jahangir or Marvi.Indian objects to your right winger coz their move directly affect us.Tell me where RSS and Shiv Sena have carried out attack in pakistan.Recommend

  • BlackJack

    *ACHIEVEDRecommend

  • BRUISED INDIAN

    Patriotism is the last refuge of the idiot… be it on either side of the fence!! Having said that… the fact remains that you need to stop, make that CEASE, to draw comparisons between the nations or using India as a yardstick.Recommend

  • Anshuman Tripathy

    Your definition of a liberal & a nationalist being at the opposite end of the spectrum is flawed. In the context of Pakistan I can understand you talking about secular Vs Islamist. But India is a completely different story. There have been secular Nationalists(Vajpayee & Nehru), secular communists(Bhagat Singh), hindu nationalists (Advani, modi etc.believe it or not they believe in co-existence with other religious groups i.e. pluralism and are okay with atheism. Babri Masjid was a retaliation for displacement of Kashmiri Pandits, Gujarat riots were a result of muslim mob instigation in Godhra) and Psuedo-secular liberals(Congress & all their allies who believe in vote bank poilitics & pander to a certain community,thats votes for them en masse, even if it hinders the nation’s development).
    You cannot bracket these people into just liberals and nationalists.

    No Indian Nationalist will:
    1.demand Shariah or any other religious doctrine to replace the Country’s constitution
    2.Shower the killer of secular liberal or even a psuedo-secular with rose petals
    3.Discriminate against a certain community or their religious practices
    4.Advocate religious war on westerners or seculars
    5.They are not against democracy or the republic
    6.protest against freedom speech and expression or individual thought.

    So please don’t take everything in the context of Pakistan.As far as hating Pakistan goes, everybody from Hindu Nationalists to even psuedo-secular liberals dislike Pakistan(Narendra Modi to Rahul Gandhi). You don’t just blame Nationalists for that.Recommend

  • Faraz Talat

    There’s no need to place quotation marks around ‘nationalists’, as if that’s just my subjective analysis. I know a nationalist when I see one.

    Criticizing one’s own country doesn’t make one a liberal, but being a liberal does involve self-criticism. The very meaning of liberalism is ‘change’, and you cannot change without first identifying and criticizing a troublesome norm.

    Arundhati Roy is an anti-nationalist, liberal by any definition, though she may not be a perfectly stereotypical one.

    And it’s not the moral support of Indians that perturbs me, but that of Indian ‘jingoists’. Jingoism, of course, is not a uniquely Indian phenomenon, and I battle Pakistani ones every day.

    And yes, I do accept the evolution theory (I’m not sure if that’s the gold-standard of social liberalism, but sure).Recommend

  • Sane

    RSS and Shiv Sena do not carry out attacks in Pakistan as they don’t need to. For this your government and your intelligence (rather terrorist) agencies are enough.Recommend

  • SL

    A typical jingoist justifying everything from human rights abuses in Kashmir to the mass murder by Modi and the destruction of the Babri Mosque. Clearly, you could justify virtually anything when it comes to your motherland, no? See that’s why you are deemed a jingoist because you make no sense. Modi and Advani have times and again cited, practiced and proved their utter hatred for the minorities – the very ideology they believe in is flawed, not liberal in any way possible.
    As for the Indian friends eagerly trying to criticized Arundhati Roy, are you guy pissed because she takes the Indian government head on? Clearly, nationalism is defined the same way on both sides of the border – namely, whatever flawed, fictional narrative is peddled by the establishment and govt. is considered nationalism and any dissent is false. Not only do we, in Pakistan, view Roy as a distinguished intellectual who has genuinely struggled to bring to light human rights abuses in India, she also gets a similar acclaim and recognition internationally.
    Similarly, while you have no Shriah-demanding mullahs branding guns and killing people in India, India does have a thousand other problems of its own. The abject poverty, the lack of opportunities, the way politics is handled, the countless human rights abuses in Kashmir and more. Liberalism, I believe, can more importantly be defined by one’s ability to criticize one’s own lot.Recommend

  • Indo Pak

    This gentleman is the most obsessed with India that I have seen. He doesn’t get that Indians will comment because Indians are impacted by the shenanigans of Pakistani politicians.Recommend

  • TheAverageMoe

    Finally somebody at ET has spoken up against our jingoistic neighbors.

    I take back the fair & lovely comment.Recommend

  • TheAverageMoe

    Let me explain what he said in English:

    We get annoyed when Indian commenters come here and talk smack about Pakistan, but they would defend India no matter what, even if India were wrong.

    We dislike your holier-than-thou attitude, we have a feeling that you visit this site to feel better about India.Recommend

  • AbdulWasayHassan

    Dear Faraz what matters is that if the criticism you do and is usedf by Indian patriots is it true or not. Cuz if it is true and you can find it to publish others can also do the same regardless from your blog or jus by googling it. So I fail to c the point here if your criticism is constructive it ill show that on its own no need to justify…Recommend

  • AbdulWasayHassan

    Also please Do Not sterotype and type cast not all liberals are raised at a poultry farm on same injections.. Same goes for patriots ..Recommend

  • Happy

    HAHAHA. Bloody brilliant. The amount of indians responding to this piece shows it has hurt. Great piece bro. Really enjoyed it.Recommend

  • UtkarshSinghNain

    Some others have already written lengthy replies and clarifications, and so I’d write my own because I’d like to confess the reason why I started reading Pakistani newspapers, even more so than I read Indian newspapers.
    To me the partition appears as a huge, messy experiment between two ideologies, to compare which can lead to a prosperous, peaceful and free nation. By definition of being Islamic, Pakistan has already lost the last bit; it’s not free, and it will never be as long as it is a theocracy.
    The bits about prosperity and peace are contentious, and in the latter I refer more to internal peace within the nation. So comes out my reason for coming to these websites: I want to see how Pakistan, the other petri dish, compares to India. When I’d first started I was almost a patriot (though I hate the concept of nationalism when your nation hasn’t done much to deserve it from you).
    Over the past three years I’ve become completely cynical in my view of India and it’s past, present and future, but reading these newspapers gives me proof that, “Hey,at least we’re not doing as bad as they are!” and it’s soothing.
    Which, finally, is why people from India who come here with motives similar to mine would naturally be trawling for comparisons favourable towards their nation, and for articles showing just how bad the situation in Pakistan is, and they would be averse to reading articles which show how bad the situation in India is, since those don’t satisfy their motives.

    Again, these are my personal motives and there may not be anyone else here with the same ones, but judging by the comments on most articles I see, there probably are.Recommend

  • kochwan

    Lol. Really enjoyed your blog. Interestingly the indians here are only pointing out the definitions of nationalist and liberals and not commenting on the spirit of the article. Clearly they don’t have an answer so now they have to grab you somewhere else. Shows their mentality. Must criticize something, even if doesnt make sense. Brilliant job!!!Recommend

  • UtkarshSinghNain

    Just a curiosity; there’s a ‘Mod’ next to your name in this Disqus interface. Does this mean you’re one of those who moderate the comments? And is it a feature Disqus itself provides?Recommend

  • Anshuman tripathy

    Yes , we do have Jingoists on our side, but the difference is that the Jingoists & Nationalists over here accept the problems that plague our society and are ready to rectify them. No one has ever denied the problems of endemic Rape, poverty, corruption and casteism. Not even Hindu Nationalists, or the RSS. Gujarat , whose chief minister is a Hindu Nationalist, is one the one of the most industrailized and developed states in the country,surely modi was not living in denial about the problems of his state and did something about them. You might like to compare Jamaat ud Dawaa or the Taliban to our RSS, but RSS has never carried out gun & bomb attacks on innocent people in the name of religion.Everytime there is a natural disaster (eg the floods in Uttarakhand), RSS volunteers are the first to carry medical and food supplies to these places and carry out rescue operations.They aren’t living in denial either.

    Congress which is liberal has many times ignored national interests to pass laws to suck up to the muslim community so they can vote for them everytime.They have literally opened the gates at the bangladesh border & bangladeshi refugess are given ration cards and other amenities. They inturn make sure that the congress remains in power.
    Now you tell me,who is caring for National interests and who is ignoring them. The secular or the Nationalist?Recommend

  • Ahmed

    Spot On!Recommend

  • Anshuman Tripathy

    Yes , we do have Jingoists, but the difference is that the Jingoists & Nationalists on our side accept the problems that plague our society and are ready to rectify them. No one has ever denied the problems of endemic Rape, poverty, corruption and casteism. Not even Hindu Nationalists, or the RSS. Gujarat , whose chief minister is a Hindu Nationalist, is one the one of the most industrailized and developed states in the country,surely modi was not living in denial about the problems of his state and did something about them. You might like to compare Jamaat ud Dawaa or the Taliban to our RSS, but RSS has never carried out gun & bomb attacks on innocent people in the name of religion.Everytime there is natural disaster (eg the floods in Uttarakhand), RSS volunteers are the first to carry medical and food supplies to these places and carry out rescue operations.They aren’t living in denial either.

    Congress which is liberal has many times ignored national interests to pass laws to please the muslim community so they can vote for them everytime.They have literally opened the gates of the bangladesh border & bangladeshi refugess are given ration cards and other amenities. They inturn make sure that the congress remains in power.
    Now you tell me,who is caring for National interests and who is ignoring them. The liberal or the Nationalist?Recommend

  • Faraz Talat

    I’ve seen Arundhati Roy rile up Indian nationalists with her critique of Indian policies in Kashmir, just as I’ve seen Jahangir anger Pakistani conservatives by highlighting the human rights violations in Balochistan.

    If your basic concern is “human rights”, you should be outraged by the situation in Kashmir as well as Balochistan (which one’s worse, is a different discussion entirely).

    That’s just one example. Roy and Jahangir share many traits, especially their mastery in getting jingoists shaking their fists and screaming “Traitors!”.Recommend

  • Ramakrishna

    Ah! Arundhati Roy one book wonder!Recommend

  • BlackJack

    Who is ‘we’? If you read Rushdie’s “The Enchantress of Florence”, Akbar keeps referring to himself as ‘we’, it’s really quite hilarious.Recommend

  • Nitesh

    I don’t know if the writer falls in the category of Pakistani liberals but you are the perfect example of Pakistani fundamentalism.Recommend

  • JayMankind

    Why deny us the pleasure? Surely, it doesn’t cost you anything! Why not take pleasure in making others happy?Recommend

  • BlackJack

    I think that is a simplistic to say that because they annoy similar people, they are similar people – it is very easy to be anti-national and clamber onto high visibility platforms, but extremely difficult to become globally acknowledged as a voice against oppression and discrimination – if you equate the two, you do Ms. Jehangir a grave disservice; and I see yet another false equivalence now (Balochistan vs Kashmir). I don’t deny human rights violations in Kashmir and would prefer if the army would exit all urban areas asap; however, I also don’t believe that moving the army out without sorting out the cross-border militancy is possible; any practical suggestions? None of the militants that are being killed in Kashmir today are from the region – this should tell you something; on an aside, have you found any Indians in Balochistan? Meanwhile, the democratically-elected (significant turnout) Kashmir government is run by Kashmiris – all employment, resources go the Kashmiris, and the state Govt also receives largesse from other Indian state taxpayers.

    My friend, you need to discuss issues based on facts alone, and not by building straw man arguments that are fundamentally flawed. If you provide facts to show that India is in the wrong, I will certainly agree with you, without bringing Pakistan into the argument if there is no reason to do so; similarly, if the subject is Pakistan, giving examples to show that India is worse is hardly an worthy argument (a message that also goes out to all those toilet-obsessed people who visit these pages).Recommend

  • Nandita.

    He is the web editor for The Express Tribune.Recommend

  • TheAverageMoe

    ‘We’ is the average Pakistani tribune reader.Recommend

  • Nitesh

    You have mistaken arguments with hurt my friend. Great debates happen when the arguments are put forward in the spirit of the last argument. If you have gone through the articles and the comments, you will find them as an extension. For the sake of the process, you only comment when you see a value in commenting to which the author is diligently replying too. Otherwise, there are a lot many articles on web hurting India or for that matter Pakistan. That’s how good things come out of a war of ideas.Recommend

  • UtkarshSinghNain

    I can just visualise you coming out of a theatre having just seen Waar.

    When India claims Pakistan has perpetrated attacks in India, it does it so vociferously, waves about evidence (whether it’s credible and damning evidence might be debatable) and points to Pakistan’s previous dubious engagements with India.
    When Pakistan claims India perpetrates attacks in Pakistan, it never produces evidence, and when it does, it doesn’t make it public. It’s never brought it up in the world forum.
    Either they don’t have any proof, or they don’t care about their people enough to bring their attackers to justice. The latter’s more likely, since the TTP is having a free run in Waziristan and the army’s busy funding movies..Recommend

  • Hu Dat

    Over the years I have noticed certain attributes of Indians, despite their large size and numbers, they are overwhelmingly interested and almost obsessed with Pakistan, I see more detailed posts here by Indians than Pakistanis. You will never find this level of enthusiasm and invective for India by any Pakistani poster on an Indian site, that Indians love to sugar coat problems at home and will attack en-mass anyone who dares bring up the truth, case in point Arudhati Roy, The Indian media is the most jingoistic, constantly clamoring pro India news and views and is very subjective and highly careful to keep parroting the official lines, blurring the line between journalism and propaganda becoming instead a tool of the state.

    Pakistani media on the other side makes me proud but also very nervous sometimes as they have absolutely no qualms about laying barely the minutest of wrongdoings by any person, department, or group of people, whether percieved or real, they will attack unabashedly but many times very responsibly, but they wont do it to India, they are always careful to analyze the situation, its the opposite in India, they will attack Pakistan at the slightest pretext, the facts be dammed, they have a preconceived notion of Pakistan and make the story fit the popular narrative.

    Just some musings.

    But keep in mind it may seem fun to hurl invective’s at the other side, but this spreads hate and intolerance on both sides, eventually this rises to levels that lead to war and other issues, instead I encourage the youth to not learn from previous generations, and instead be responsible writers with positive criticism not a positive spin on what they write which ever side they may be on the topic. There are smart people on both sides, I myself am guilty of this pleasure from time to time but have learnt to check myself. So don’t bash others for fun, instead do a intelligent self analysis, both nations need to look at themselves before pointing fingers, neither is in a condition to say they are better because to others it sounds silly, its like two beggars, one with a roti and other with biscuits, and biscuitwalla is showing off he has biscuits…oh please grow up.Recommend

  • Gratgy

    We come here becaaaaauuuse………. you people are so amusingRecommend

  • Faraz Talat

    Nobody’s discouraged you from commenting. Your criticism of Pakistan’s policies is most welcome.

    My point was a little more subtle.Recommend

  • Faraz Talat

    Had facts intrigued you, you’d acknowledged the suffering of Kashmiri citizens at the hands of Indian military; some of these actions deserve no apologists. There are sections of your comment I wish I could’ve extracted and infused into my blog as an exhibit.

    I can just as easily assert that the violations in Balochistan can be conveniently ignored, as the army’s exit from the region would leave it completely vulnerable to armed rebels and separatists. Is it possible to have continued military presence, but ensure that their criminal negligence or violations not be swept under the rug in the name of patriotism?

    Speaking of strawman, you’re basing your argument on the assumption that I want Indian army to “exit all urban areas”. I recognize that is not a pragmatic option at the moment.

    I’m simply lamenting the human rights violations, whose examples are a mere Google search away (one doesn’t even need to rely on the biased Pakistani media for it).Recommend

  • gp65

    I do not think Indian commentators defend India no matter what. Many Indians (including me) spoke up about the sexual harassment and rapes which need to be tamed. IT is because tens of thousands of us poured out in the streets to protest these things, that the government has been forced to take notice and change outdated laws.
    Take any issue that is a problem in India – open defecation, female foeticide, sexual harassment etc. and you will find that these issues are discussed threadbare in India and policy action taken. Te same issues are also a problem in Pakistan but because they are not widely discussed.Recommend

  • Pappu

    Although they are progressive secular and hard working, Indians have some kind of inferiority complex.Recommend

  • gp65

    It is false equivalence to compare Arundhato Roy (an undoubtedly very talented writer) with Asma Jehangir. Yes, if you compared Anna Hazare with Asma Jehangir or Dabholkar – I can understand.

    If you say Arundhati Roy and Asma Jehangir share many characteristics, please list a few. Simply having many detractors is not good enough. Both Abraham Lincoln and Hitler had detractors, that does not make them similar. Roy does not have any track record whatsoever of doing things on the ground.

    Coming to Kashmir – was there a problem there before 1989 when Pakistan started to send its jihadis who pushed out 100s of thousands of Hindu Kashmiris away from the home of their ancestors for centuries. The so called 700000 armed force members in Kashmir (an exaggerated number to begin with) are on the LoC precisely to foil the infiltration which led to the terrorism which destroyed the lives and livelihood of ordinary Kashmiris – both Hindu and Muslim. There may be the rare excess by armed forces when they are under attack in a guerilla war. But Kashmir’s own CM (who is an Indian) raises his voice against them as do millions of other Indians and no one disagrees that those who have harmed innocent civilians should be made accountable.

    Unlike Balochistan whose resources are used by the country with little going to Baloch people, Kashmir is the recipient of huge subsidies from the centre.Recommend

  • gp65

    ET Mods – Please do not disallow based on person opinion. everything in my post complies with your comment guidelines.

    I see several flaws in logic and would like to point them out.

    1. Anyone who criticizes their country is a liberal

    Any patriotic person will accept problems in their own country and try to find solutions. This does not make them liberal or conservative – though the solutions you may come up with if you are a liberal may differ from those that you come up with if you are conservative.

    So the fact that you are willing to introspect does not inherently make you a liberal. What makes you a liberal (at least in my eyes) is your stand on women’s rights and minority rights. I and many like me tend to agree with your stance and support the same in my own country.

    On the other hand, not all criticism of your own country is bonafide and just because someone criticizes their country it does not make them liberal.

    2. Your blogs are used by Indians to collect negative information about Pakistan.

    Your notion that people use your blogs to collect information against your country is based on a misconception. The facts are known and no one needs your blogs or comments to get to those facts. Many Indians may ‘like’ your comments because they resonate with our own values.

    3. Indians are unwilling to introspect.

    Also your notion that Indians are unwilling to introspect about problems in their own country is based on our reaction to the 2-3 Indian authors who write in ET. If these writers present cherrypicked facts and flawed logic to portray a deliberately misleading picture, people will point out flaws in data and logic. This does not however mean that Indians are unwilling to introspect. Communal tensions in India over the years have significantly reduced the current fracas at Muzaffarnagar notwithstanding. This is not a happenstance. It is because Indian civilians, law enforcement agencies and media took a strong stand against hate speeches – whoever makes them. People in ruling coaliation are in jail because of corruption. Again this happened because civil society, media, emboldened law enforcement authorities to take an unbiased stand. Ditto with the reaction of Indian people to the gangrape which forced the government to update its laws on the subject.

    4. Arundhati Roy and her detractors are comparable to Asma Jehangir and her detractors.

    You compare detractors of Arundhati Roy with Asma Jehangir and conclude that in both cases the reason they are unpopular is because they say something that shows up problems in own country. If that were true, Amir Khan’s show Satyamev Jayate which covered problems from female foeticide to honor killings would not have been such a hit. No one labelled him anti-national and in fact felt that he was doing national service by presenting such well researched problems with suggestions for solving them. In fact many of the suggestions he provided have been acted upon by governments at various level and also individual civil society organisations.

    Detractors of Martin Luther King and Detractors of KKK leadership cannot be equated just because they are detractors. The inherent argument that a person is making must be seen and the nature of arguments put by detractors must also be evaluated before trying to equate two people merely because they have detractors.

    5. Appreciating your comments and blogs is a way for us to discredit your country.

    If your purpose in writing this blog is to request us not to ‘like’ your comments because that embarrasses in front of your compatriots, we can certainly honor your request. But if you expect that we should stop providing our opinions, well there is a way to accomplish that. If Pakistani state and non-sate actors stop harming India, you will find that most Indians will lose interest and stop visiting your newspapers – just as few visit Nepalese or Burmese newspapers. You will find that most of the Indians who regularly visit Pakistani newspapers started doing so after 26/11.Recommend

  • Dee Cee

    Ahahahaha, I love this! As an Indian, I can tell you my analysis of this. Apart from the rabid jingoists who love to feed on any criticism of Pakistan, the supposedly liberal supporter of Indian liberal issues could also derive pleasure from Pakistan’s vicissitudes and be blind as a bat regarding on Indian problem like, say, Kashmir. For example, I can reasonably believe that there has been humongous human rights abuse in Kashmir, but I find it nearly impossible to think that Kashmir can be given up. That is perhaps because of the educational and other conditioning. If you take out the admission of guilt in Kashmir, you have a perfect example of liberal attitudes coexisting with jingoism. You keep taking out such admissions on various problems plaguing India, you’ll slowly get a more hardened jingoist. As a friend once said, you can measure honesty. Somebody will not pick up a 5 rupee note on the footpath but will take a 500 rupee note. Somebody else will not take 500 but will go for thousand, lakh or crore. So people are, according to this friend, 5-rupee honest, or 500 rupee honest, or 1 crore honest. Similarly, you can have degrees of liberalism with the lowest one being a khap liberal who becomes a gay rights liberal to the Kashmir liberal, the last rung of liberal hierarchy in India. Somehow Indian leftists have managed to gatecrash the liberal party in India because of a sizeable overlap of their agenda, but all said and done, the unaffiliated Indian liberal is a rare animal. Most of us are stuck with 5-rupee liberalism only. Meanwhile, schadenfreude remains a favorite passtime for people with unresolved emotional / psychological issues.Recommend

  • Jim

    The illustration accompanying the blog says it all. “Pakistan is so corrupt….JUST LIKE INDIA.” When Indians speaks of corruption in India, they don’t tag “just like Pakistan” to it, even while speaking to Pakistanis. In innumerable conversations with Pakistani friends, I find this constant quest for equivalence …speak of Mumbai, and there is instant refrain of “yes…even in Karachi…” As a newer entity, an off-shoot of India, I can understand the insecurity. THis should also address the point someone else made on this forum that it is India that is obsessed with Pakistan. It isn’t; it’s the other way around. If Pakistan ceased to exist, it wouldn’t matter very much to India — although we’d very much wish our wonderful liberal Pakistani friends to be with us.Recommend

  • Patriotic Pakistani

    Does this mean that you read Pakistani newspapers to satisfy your ego that “aal iz well” in India????Recommend

  • Nandita.

    ET Mods : Pls publish without editing.

    @Gratgy: Usually I avoid you and I will continue doing so in the future as well (and with good reason ) but this has to be said — This is another one of your mean/vile comments… If you disagree with Faraz Talat’s blog, have a reasonable discussion without trolling, Faraz is not a joker writing blogs to be ridiculed by the likes of you. People visit ET because there are bloggers like Faraz who write brilliant pieces and people ,such as yourself, are the reason why discussions turn meaningless and tiresome.Recommend

  • sh123

    On one hand pakistan says it is victim of terror and on other hand shakil afridi has been charged for finding bin laden. Hypocrisy at its bestRecommend

  • Faraz Talat

    Lo, Indian Exceptionalism.

    India and Hinduism dangle in a separate universe with a different set of physical laws, so that the prescription one lovingly hands out to Pakistan does not apply to India because, “Oh, that’s a compleeeeetely different situation!”

    It isn’t.

    Whether or not human rights have been violated, is not decided by assessing the geopolitical context in which the said violation occurred.Recommend

  • Faraz Talat

    Thank you. That was very extremely relevant.Recommend

  • Karan Raghav

    @faraztalat:disqus “I shall assume you are also against religion-inspired laws restricting beef production and trade in India”. Well sorry for acting like a devil’s advocate, but Mr. Pakistani Liberal just like you expect us Indian liberals to oppose beef prohibition, would you too support similar lack of restrictions for pork production & trade in Pakistan? Will be glad if u could respond. RegardsRecommend

  • Parvez

    ……..and this is why I respect you.Recommend

  • Stop Talibinazation

    It would have been better if you had written a blog about the ordeal that happened in Kamran Shahid’s show a few days ago, where Ansar Abbasi and Orya Maqbool were inciting the public to kill Pervez Hoodhboy in a veiled manner. The Indian ‘nationalists’ are there and alive on the Internet, and they’re quite annoying, but they are no threat to Pakistani liberals as the pro-Taliban pseudo-intellectuals are that appear in the media and whose only objective is to silence the progressive forces by promoting hostilities and killing using religious sentiments.Recommend

  • Parvez

    Now that in my view was an honest comment and one that addressed the subject in the blog and gave an understandable explanation.Recommend

  • Anshuman Tripathy

    OK, I am going to be honest with you. There have been excesses by the Indian Army in Kashmir. Many of these are due to Armed Forces Special Powers Act (AFSPA). Would Kashmir be militant free without this Act? Not a chance.

    Around 2730 bodies were found in unmarked graves according to a Govt report in 2011 and most of these are civilians. Trust me when I say this I am the biggest Critic of Army high handedness in Kashmir and I am totally against it. But you and I both know if the army were to leave today,kashmir would be filled with militants in a matter of hours. The root of this problem can be traced back to 1990 when militants from AJK infiltrated into Indian Kashmir & spear-headed a separatist movement. Kashmiri Pundits were picked up from their homes,shot and dumped on the streets for the world to see. Our family friends are Kashmiri pundits who ran away from Srinagar because the Grandfather was brutally shot and hung on a lamp post. Around 400000 pundits were pushed out and had to live like refugees in their own lands in makeshift camps with no water & sanitation. Everybody has their own perspective on things, and with these perspectives in mind everyone has their own version of the truth. There is no Absolute truth my friend.

    I suggest you watch an excellent documentary on Kashmir that covers almost all the perspectives called “Inshallah Kashmir”. It won the national award for best investigative documentary this year.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qoy5926-D1ARecommend

  • BlackJack

    Dude, you just don’t get the point, instead you get personal. And here you go again with “I can just as easily ….”. Your arguments should stand on their own. I don’t care about violations in Balochistan when I discuss Kashmir (I actually rarely comment on Balochistan at all); you on the other hand , are trying to say that Balochistan and Kashmir are the same, which allows you to avoid getting into the actual details by pulling two areas that are troubled because of completely different political issues under one all-encompassing human rights umbrella – now that is certainly convenient, so pls do ‘liberally’ pat yourself on the back. Unfortunately I see no benefit in such a shallow approach, but to each his own.Recommend

  • BlackJack

    I see rudeness creeping into the large empty spaces that your arguments are unable to fill. Regrettable. On an aside, saying human rights have been violated does not solve a problem, to solve it you do indeed need to figure out the geopolitical context, and every problem is then different. I can understand your disenchantment with any idea that requires a bit more attention to detail, but generalization (a la ‘Lo, Indian Exceptionalism’) does not really work.Recommend

  • gp65

    “There’s no need to place quotation marks around ‘nationalists’, as if that’s just my subjective analysis. I know a nationalist when I see one.”

    You have not been appointed sole judge and jury to decide who is nationalist and who is not. So the fact that you know a nationalist when you see one means nothing if other people from diverse backgrounds do not consistently come to the same conclusion as you do. In any case you define liberal to be the opposite of ‘nationalist’ . How did you come up with that definition. All manners of people liberals and conservative can be nationalist. In any case being nationalist is not a negative thing as you make it out to be.
    So you see with no agreement on even definition of ‘nationalist’, there most definitely is a need to put that term in quotes.Recommend

  • gp65

    First of all I am surprised that you equate India with Hinduism. Unlike in Pakistan non-Hindus can and have reached the highest posts in public life (President, PM, CJ, COAS, Chief Election Commissioner) and found fame, wealth and recognition in private sector.

    Secondly, did @BlackJack defend human rights violations? No he did not. None of us do. But the army is there to prevent infiltration and terrorism from Pakistan which has driven out hundreds of thousands of non-Muslim Kashmir out of the valley. This is why their presence at the LoC is required even as erring army officers should no doubt be made accountable. In comparison, India is not infiltrating Balochistan with Indians and neither is India sucking Kashmiri resources leaving Kashmiris destitute as has been the case in Balochistan.

    Challenging a false equivalence does not mean that we are compalcent about the many genuine problems that do exist back home.Recommend

  • gp65

    Well when you say that your criticism is not meant for Indian ‘patriots’, you are in fact discouraging comments.

    Your other point is that Indians are unwilling to acknowledge problems in their country. On those blogs/OpEds where the criticism is legitimate, you will find Indians agreeing with the problems. Such blogs may or may not be on ET per se – which reflects ET’s editorial policy but I have seen many Indians critically write about a range of problems in India and in the current global web, it does not matter if such criticism is on ET or any other platform.

    Even within ET, when it came to the article about vandalism written by Sanjay Kumar – most Indians agreed that vandalising work of Pakistani artistes was wrong. But disagreed with him that such actions had mass support in India. Thsi disagreement was on the basis that there were any number of TV anchors and news papers that criticised the vandalism and moreover the vandals were arrested by the police and at the time that Sanjay published his article they were in jail. Yet disregarding all these facts you had chided @BlackJack even at that time for not fully agreeing with Sanjay. http://blogs.tribune.com.pk/story/18662/art-gallery-in-ahmedabad-attacked-are-pakistani-artists-are-no-longer-welcome-in-india/
    If you expect people to agree with unfair criticism just so that they can earn the label of liberal, that is wishful thinking indeed.Recommend

  • gp65

    “So, if you keep liking, upping, and recommending liberals’ on-line comments decrying restrictions on selling chardonnay in Pakistan, I shall assume you are also against religion-inspired laws restricting beef production and trade in India”

    Hmm, are you aware that India is the largest exporter of beef? http://www.dnaindia.com/mumbai/report-holy-cow-india-to-be-largest-beef-exporter-1696024. And while we are on this line, there is no rule in India that is similar to ehteram-e-Ramzan ordinance that punishes people who openly eat during Navratri or Karwa chauth or any other fast observed by many Hindus. If there were such a rule, you can be sure I and millions others like me would criticize that rule.

    When Israr Ullah Zehri made a statement that burying women alive if they chose their own husband was a centuries old tradition and he would continue to defend it, there might have been a couple of critical editorials in some liberal English newspapers but that was the extent of disapproval. When our President’s son – who is himself an MP made the dented and painted comment to discredit those who were protesting the Delhi gangrape, there was a national uproar and he was forced to publicly apologize.

    There are any number of youtube videos that are critical of Hindu beliefs – some doing so in a rude and crude manner. This has not resulted in any political pressure to ban youtube.

    So as you can see Indian laws are not driven by what Hindu tradition dictates and if someone tried to implement such laws in India we would surely protest.Recommend

  • Zeta

    Its amusing to see so many butt-hurts from across the border. Indians jingoists hoover over Pakistani new sites like scavengers just waiting to see some news which can satisfy their egos and complexes.Recommend

  • Insaan

    Author: “Although I stand committed to what I write, it is distressing to know that someone has been digging into my blogs to gather informational ammo against my country, and use it in ways that I have never intended for it to be used.”
    I am curious to know what kind of information you wrote against your country that some one is using for unintended purposes. Did you tell the truth about what Pakistani army/ISI does in Baluchistan, on LOC, in Kashmir and other cities in India?Recommend

  • Cosmo

    U r simply puting word in his mouth he did not say “in the hands of indian military”. Although thats what u would like to believe. Human rights violation have happened in Kashmir primarily coz of pak sponsered terrorism ( or for your benefit in Your country they are known as stretegic assets) not by indian military. Now do u have an iota of proof that india is involved i. Balochistan?Recommend

  • gp65

    Speaking of equivalence between Balochistan and Kashmir – I cannot imagine any Indian supporting the BLAs stance of expelling Punjabi laborers working in Balochistan. I hope that you can similarly criticize the expelling of Kashmiri Pandits from Kashmir. Oh and by the way it is not Indians that are expelling the Punjabis but it is jihadis from Pakistan who are expelling the Kashmiri panditsRecommend

  • Critical

    Hi Faraz

    I’m a big fan of your writing…I do agree that many Indians visit ET just to check out the bad things happening out in Pakistan and feel happy that atleast our country hasnt gone down to dogs like Pakistan…

    This is no different to the pakistanis who comment on TOI on every article calling India “Rapistan” “Black Hindus” on comments section…Moreover the comment moderators in TOI is a program unlike ET which has a human moderating it..So all you need to do is to deliberately misspell a few words….

    As a nation of 1.2 billion people with more and more getting access to internet,neither can I control those chest patriots or can you control yours….

    However,I find that you have downgraded yourselves and everyone by comparing Arundati Roy as an Indian liberal….

    Please note that Arundati Roy is a Kim Kardashian of India…Like Kardashian,She had an event which brought her to media spotlight(thankfully it was a book not a leaked tape)..

    From that point,she is deliberately making statements which will bring the attention of media and keep her in spotlight..

    She calls herself self proclaimed anarchist but actually more like a dog which runs behind every street car…She is like Ann Coulter,pushing her agenda forward and proclaim that its the best

    Honestly,when the entire nation was reeling under 26/11 attack,she didnt use that opportunity to say it was Indian govt’s fault that terrorists like Kasab are born…..Thats like trying to roast marshmallows from the burning remains of an orphanage…..

    Please do read more about her…Many Indians are angry with her like the Pakistanis have on Zaid Hamid…Recommend

  • jssidhoo

    I come here hoping to find some green shoots to peace between usRecommend

  • Insaan

    Had facts intrigued you, you’d acknowledged the suffering of Kashmiri citizens at the hands of Indian military……….Indian Military is there to fight Pakistani terrorists and terrorist elements trained by Pakistan to create problems in Kashmir. Problem can be resolved quickly if Pakistan stops sending Mujahedeen into Kashmir. Every Pakistani knows ISI/Paki army is involved in creating problems in Kashmir and Baluchistan. Pakistan media rarely talks about human right violations in BaluchistanRecommend

  • Dee Cee

    He spoke about alcohol, which is equally prohibited in Islam. Btw, if he says yes to pork, will you come back and ask about each and everything prohibited in Islam one by one. Please don’t be like, “Okay, you are cool with alcohol and pork, but as a Pakistani liberal do you also support production of domestic meth in Pakistan?” Please do not work overtime to prove the point Faraz made in his blog.Recommend

  • midhat

    On every other writeup you always manage to bring Pakistan and its problems even when its not related.the news may be only about India but your Pakistan bashing is always so constant.. This blog is precisely about holier than thou commentators like yourself orblackjack or Gratty who love lecturing us with such condescending tone that your nationalist mindset becomes but obviousRecommend

  • PiS

    Being a Pakistani, I can appreciate your honesty. And if I was in your shoes, I would be doing the exact same thing. Requisitioning one-dimensional pakistan-narrative in India, and feeling slightly better on comparing India with Pakistan (probably at the worst time of her history). Cheers man.Recommend

  • Neutral

    “If Pakistan ceased to exist, it wouldn’t matter very much to India”

    I used to buy this argument. But it is totally inaccurate. And this is coming from a neutral observer of the Indo-Pak theatre.Recommend

  • PiS

    Insightful comment. Thanks!Recommend

  • vikramvg

    The author might find this blog post of interest: http://thesouthasianidea.wordpress.com/2009/10/10/pakistan's-favorite-indians/

    ‘Ghar apna toh sabko jee jaan se pyaara lagta hain’, every body loves their home and their country. And so some level of jingoism etc is to be expected I guess.

    I just think a lot of Indians would be either perplexed or annoyed at why you needed to say ‘Just like India !’ in your post. I am sure you wouldnt like it if Indians said India is not a great place to be a female, ‘Just like Pakistan’. A little common sense can make these forums a lot more useful.Recommend

  • gp65

    Faraz Talat “I shall assume you are also against religion-inspired laws restricting beef production and trade in India”

    Not sure if you are aware that India has recently become the largest beef exporter of the world?

    Also if there were a law that mirrored Ehteram-eRamzan which punished people from eating during karwa chouth or navratri or other occasions when Practicing Hindus traditionally fast, I would protest that as well.

    So yes, I and many others like me do not support laws inspired by Hinduism in India. Laws should be based on fairness and humanity and not based on a religious doctrine. This is why you would be hard pressed to find such laws except in the realm of personal laws such as marriage, divorce and inheritance laws where people of each religion gets to follow their own religion. In my opinion and the opinion of the party that I support even that should not be the case. There should be common laws for all and the laws should not be based on any religious text.Recommend

  • gp65

    Are you quite sure? Faraz asks that question about whether Indians would support laws based on Hindu religion without making his own view known and that is what Karan seems to be asking him.

    In any case, there are fundamental flaws in Faraz’s question. Not every Indian is a Hindu so the notion of equating India with Hindus is not accurate. Secondly India is the largest exporter of beef in the world so his rhetorical question falls flat on the altar of facts.Recommend

  • gp65

    A pretty sweeping statement about all Indians. On what basis did you reach such a conclusion, I am curious to know.Recommend

  • Sure?

    If the article is about Pakistan, what do you expect her to write about? I have not seen her take swipes at Pakistan that are unrelated to the subject matter of the post Orr the person she is rebutting. Invariably she also supports her arguments with reasoning which is more than you are doing here .Recommend

  • Farhan

    Dear SM – liberalism & nationalism are two different concepts. Example: Americans are some the most nationalistic people on the planet, and also some of the most liberal.

    Oh and one more thing, “free market capitalism” and liberalism don’t go hand-in-hand. Example: read up on why ‘socialist’ Obamacare has all the right-wingers up in arms, you free-thinking intellectual you :-PRecommend

  • Californian Desi

    But dude. India indeed “IS BETTER” than Pakistan. Pick any index for comparison you want :)Recommend

  • Gratgy

    ET, Please publish this without editing either

    Aww you have been avoiding me (A single tear runs down my cheek).
    I am telling the reason why a lot of us come to ET. I never mentioned anything about the quality of the blog or the bloger. This is a well written blog and I appreciate the author. I am simply stating the reason why I come here to be amused by holier than thou people like you and some of the radicals on the other side.
    You respond and I shall reply.Recommend

  • Californian Desi

    Just to point out that Google does not publish any article. The search leads to many self proclaimed historians whose articles have never been validated for accuracy. If those articles are the basis of your prejudices against Indian army in Kashmir, then good luck with your argument and debate.Recommend

  • Nandita.

    You can call me a ‘holier than thou’ person or whatever else you want , the fact is that people like you are the reason good discussions are reduced to nothing but mud slinging. And that’s the main reason you come here – to participate in brawls and behave in a way you wouldn’t have the guts to offline Recommend

  • Karan Raghav

    @ad513653ee8c2f3f6a8c6f25f479e0dd:disqus: I appreciate most of what Faraz said & I can empathize with him for I too have many over-enthusiastic Pakistani friends. All I wanted to highlight is that ‘beef’ is as big a taboo for us Hindus as pork is for Muslims. I guess you’re aware that unlike pork consuming alcohol is still pretty much allowed among Muslims. So the right equivalent for beef is pork not alcohol, I hope u’d agree with me. Otherwise it was a fairly decent article I must say.Recommend

  • Nandita.

    ET : Why did you edit my comment – not fair.
    @Gratgy – I’d rather be ‘ holier than thou’ than a troll who goes around spewing venom.Recommend

  • BlackJack

    Just a contrasting view from another Indian. I prefer criticism of the individual comment instead of the individual; in the case of @ Gratgy, while his posts are often more acerbic than (say) mine, I have enjoyed reading several of the incisive, spirited and witty comments that he has made in the past.Recommend

  • Gratgy

    Two replies and you say you are avoiding me??? You start a brawl and then you acuse me??
    Aaah my eyes!!, my eyes!! the hypocrisy is blinding!
    You amuse me too, you are one of the many reasons why I come here. Oh! by the way saying you amuse me is a compliment to you. No venom hereRecommend

  • Gratgy

    Thanks BlackJack, Now Nandita is going to argue till kingdom come sigh!!Recommend

  • Gratgy

    You want to fight with me offline?? Recommend

  • Faraz Talat

    I apologize if I sounded impolite, but I encourage you to sense that the rudeness wasn’t unilateral…

    I’ve made it amply clear that Balochistan and Kashmir are not the same; they are only same in the regard that human rights have been violated in each, though not necessarily to the same magnitude. I would’ve pointed out a strawman, but I fear you may perceive that as ‘getting personal’.

    All I’m asking is that my friends from across the border have some consistency in their views, and recognize that much of the good advice they hand out to Pakistan (not being flippant here), applies to India too in a number of places.

    I’m not going to be tossing red herrings if you criticize Pakistan, because I acknowledge that our crises aren’t worth veiling. I just anticipate that if the discussion ever turns to a crisis of similar nature in India, you won’t reflexively put up a shield.Recommend

  • Faraz Talat

    I did not select the title. There’s been a fair amount of editing here which I don’t entirely agree with.

    Also, I sense that you’re taking this blog as a general tirade against Indians on Express Tribune. It most certainly is not, and considering what I’ve learned from my interaction with you thus far, you may not be the subject of this piece at all.

    The subject is the minority (Indian jingoists) who join the liberals in criticizing Pakistan’s sociopolitical problems, but when a crisis of similar nature (if not necessarily similar extent) is pointed out for India, they immediately assume a defensive position.Recommend

  • Faraz Talat

    Seems a little unfair that one can call another commenter “retarded” on ET, while the milder comments get edited or rejected.

    That’s not just a personal attack, but a slur.Recommend

  • Ejaz

    well madame..technically the beef that we export is actually buffalo meat..and domestically beef consumption (which is mostly by muslims, christians and low caste hindus) is usually an adult grown up Ox or Bull. I guess Talat was referring to the female or an adult cow whose slaughter can result in a fine from 15, 000 to 50,000 (in some states like Gujarat).

    Secondly the author is basically trying to represent the defensiveness which people show when shown the mirror. Like for instance, the issue anti muslim bias in our police and how it plays off during indicents of terror. Its not that every muslim who gets imprisoned is innocent but there are many many ones who are (read Ashish Khetan’s superb article on the topic, http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/other-states/from-stenography-to-journalismashish-khetan/article4739935.ece . Yet these things are usually brushed aside by people he is referring to as ‘nationalists’ above. In my opinion people who would go to any length to defend something wrong happening in their country are doing their motherland a big disservice.Recommend

  • UtkarshSinghNain

    Yep. That’s what I said. Comparing India with China won’t do much for my ego, and all our other neighbours are too small or “regional”, like Sri Lanka, Nepal, Bhutan and Bangladesh.

    Pakistan is more like India, has historic rivalries in most fields and it also is doing worse than we are. The perfect candidate.Recommend

  • UtkarshSinghNain

    It’s simple, egotistic human nature. Everyone wants to feel good about the community they belong (in my case, reluctantly) belong to.Recommend

  • Faraz Talat

    Yes, I’m against the ban on pork products as well. Non-Muslims and non-practicing Muslims should be free to acquire them if they want to. That is not the state’s business.

    It’s all part of the package when I declared myself a ‘secularist’, isn’t it?Recommend

  • Gratgy

    Nandita has repeatedly called me a Troll and that I do not have guts to fight with people offline (Though why I should fight with people offline simply escapes me)- A Statement (slur)
    I asked her if she was retarded- A Question.
    So who is slurring whom?Recommend

  • Gratgy

    For your benefit, I shall rephrase.. “Nandita, do you expect me to fight with people offline… How old are you??”Recommend