Why America won’t help with Kashmir

Published: April 1, 2012

Aakar's obsession with the west and its model of “democracy” notwithstanding, which he aspires to follow studiously, he conveniently overlooks the fact that the west looks upon India as a booming market where it can sell its armaments and technology. PHOTO: REUTERS

Media commentator Aakar Patel, who also co-owns a publishing and content outsource company in Mumbai, recently wrote for The Express Tribune about the Kashmir freedom struggle and how India gets away despite its reign of oppression and coercion in the valley. For a change, Aakar is one of the voices from the Indian mainstream who infuses fresh life into the waning secular Indianess.

However, his skewed proclamations where he raises questions like “What does azadi mean? It means freedom, of course. But freedom from what? (sic)”, which are not new to the Kashmir discourse, stink of ignorance and self-righteousness, and must be rebutted.

Aakar wrote that Kashmir freedom struggle evokes less or no sympathy from the western nations because of its religiosity. To put it bluntly, he sought to blame Islam for being a roadblock in the Kashmir freedom struggle whose intended goal is to achieve separation from India. Here one would like to ask Aakar whether he is trying to suggest that had the majority of Kashmiris been uncircumcised monks in monasteries, the west would have considered the struggle secular enough to damn India for its brutality. How does he know?

Aakar’s obsession with the west and its model of “democracy” notwithstanding, which he aspires to follow studiously, he conveniently overlooks the fact that the west looks upon India as a booming market where it can sell its armaments and technology. India, the largest importer of arms in the world, is planning to enhance its stockpile by buying $100 billion worth of new weapons over the next 10 years. US, Israel and Europe are its major arms suppliers. Did Aakar even consider this? With what supremeness of logic does he expect the western countries to raise the issue of Kashmir with India and cut the hands that feed their economies?

Western nations aren’t concerned or don’t talk about human rights violations committed by security forces in Kashmir specifically because they don’t want to lose a lucrative market. If the non-Islamism of a freedom struggle was a factor for bringing conflicts into the focus of the west, why hasn’t the western media paid attention to the Maoist conflict that has bled the heart of India? Why was the conflict in Sri Lanka not paid any attention by the west? Apart from the sloppy noises, why doesn’t Tibet come under the radar of the west’s so-called morality dictating authorities? These questions Aakar doesn’t care to answer because they will raise more uncomfortable questions. Also, the western media doesn’t cover Kashmir with proper concern and continuance because it doesn’t want to meet the fate of The Economist!

Aakar also asks what is wrong with the Indian constitution. “It is not utopian, but it works,” he claims.

“Kashmir’s leaders who demand azadi from India’s constitution should explain why they are rejecting it”.

There are two points that will answer this question. One, that the Indian constitution works (and he is honest enough to admit that it works partially) doesn’t necessarily mean that the people on which it is enforced have no option but to go with the will of the majority and accept it. One evil doesn’t necessarily give moral superiority to the other, lesser evil.

Two, his partiality in addressing this issue raises crucial questions that lie at the heart of a raging debate on whether India is a secular democracy where all the citizens are treated as equals or whether India, as a soft fascist state, is prejudiced towards its large minority in times of duress and crisis, as has happened across the India where Muslims have been systematically targeted by the state agencies, particularly in cases of terrorism. The answers to these questions are anyone’s guess!

When it comes to the effectiveness of justice delivery institutions, nothing can explain the flaws of Indian constitution more than the fateful women of the Kunan Poshpora village who are waiting, even after 21 years of having been allegedly raped by security forces, to see their perpetrators punished.

How can one explain the greatness of Indian constitution to them? How can one convince the mother of Sameer Rah who was trampled under the boots of the “world’s largest democracy” or to the 5,000 odd families who wait for their victims of enforced disappearances to return home safely to believe in the greatness of Indian constitution? What about the 3,000 odd half-widows who battle against hope to see their missing husbands come back from oblivion? What reprieve has the Indian constitution offered them?

It was a year after the partition of subcontinent when the Indian republic was yet to come into existence that the Indian prime minister, acknowledging the disputed nature of the Kashmir issue, took it to the United Nations. Now Mr Patel wants that Indian constitution to be shoved down the throats of Kashmiris if they don’t accept it. Had Aakar verified the facts, he would have known that Kashmiris have never cherished the rights granted by the “close-to-utopia” Indian constitution like the people living in India.

Kashmiris challenge the applicability of the Indian constitution in the valley precisely because it neither works in Kashmir nor does it provide the fruits of its greatness to the people the way it does to people living in India. For the last 22 years, the state has been held hostage by draconian laws like the Armed Forces Special Powers Act under which thousands of people have been killed and subjected to enforced disappearances. Why should Kashmiris even consider examining the flaws of Indian constitution when it is nothing more than a source of torments for them?

The western nations particularly the USA have used the human rights issue to exercise its leverage over lesser blessed countries where it sniffs opportunities that can be utilised and useful resources that can be exploited. If only human suffering was enough to evoke sympathies of the west, we would have found NATO troops camping in Sierra Leone or Sudan instead of Libya and Afghanistan. They don’t come to save your humanity. They come to save their economies – their nations.

Jehangir Ali

Jehangir Ali

An aspiring novelist, a proud son, a journalist, a coffee addict, a movie buff, in that order, Jehangir tweets as @Gaamuk

The views expressed by the writer and the reader comments do not necessarily reflect the views and policies of The Express Tribune.

  • Mohsin

    @India:

    Sorry mate. Terror acts and poking will go on forever. Europe is steel feeling the aftermath of WW2.
    And no one is scared of you anyways so it will go on im pretty sure. Recommend

  • manish

    @kaalchakra:
    give some refrences to show that persians exerted considerable influence in kashmir?

    and even if they did, it is in no condition going to belong to pakistan, for iranians are inheritors of persian civilization. afterall, you are pakistanis are arabs, not persians.Recommend

  • Mohsin

    @Tanmay:
    @An Indian:

    You have misunderstood. India is not a hindu state. But Pakistan is a state specially created for muslims.Recommend

  • observer

    @antanu g

    west always think 20 years ahead…they are not bothered by today

    You mean that while the ‘West’ was supporting Pakistan in creating Jihad in Afghanistan they could see 9/11 happening and still did not prevent it?

    Stupid West. I am sure you are better off without them.Recommend

  • observer

    @kaalchakra

    there were never any Hindus or anything to do with India in Kashmir. It was always the great Persian center of learning from which Persia imported all her kings and queens. Some of the early Pharaohs were Kashmiri as well.

    Do find out about a book called Rajtarangini by Kalhan.

    However, if the Egyptians and Persians still want to import Kashmiri Brahmins,( the only true unadulterated Kashmiris left,) to rule over them, there are no objections whatsoever. Recommend

  • Love

    @kaalchakra: your own people are not able to live freely and you talk about freeing others. Shia Hazara Killing, Unrest in Balochistan, Rape of minority girls and forced conversion, Burning in Gojra, Target Killing in Karachi …. and this is what you call freedom !! Please save yourself before saving others. Recommend

  • prabhjyot singh madan

    Kashmir this, Kashmir that. East Pakistan was lost. Balochistan is on the way. Sindh is simmering but Kashmir…Kashmir. please set your house in order first. Which kashmiri would want to be a part of failing state of Pakistan in his right sense ? The kashmiri separatists are just living their lives on the militancy industry over there. Nobody cares. Kashmir….Kashmir, its a joke demanding freedom for them now in 2012. The goal should be to educate the masses and provide food, shelter and health. Even commiting suicide is an offence and we cannot all our kashmiri Muslim brothers and sisters to commit it by joining Pakistan.thank youRecommend

  • kaalchakra

    “pakistanis are arabs, not persians”

    Pakistanis have a diverse genetic ancestry of Arab, Persian, Turkish, and Central Asian nobility. Intellectually, of course, the ancestry is one – of Islam – and there is no difference between a Pakistani Arab or a Pakistani Persian or a Pakistani Turk.

    Observer, that is an outright forgery! It was written under British tutelage, in 1896, under the supervision of a known forger one Mr. Norom Anderson, of London. Everyone knows that the equivalent of the original Rajtarangini was in Persian, which was translated and corrupted in order to misguide people like you! Please open your eyes to the truth, which will set you free.t

    i have never understood why so many people just love to believe lies, but clearly they do!Recommend

  • Pollack

    @Akash: The author is not Pakistani. It’s hard to believe but he is from India.Recommend

  • Freeman

    @Shabbir Ali: They stayed back in India because they will create another Independent muslim country.Recommend

  • observer

    @kaalchakra

    Pakistanis have a diverse genetic ancestry of Arab, Persian, Turkish, and Central Asian nobility.

    You mean the entire raping, pillaging mob of Hulagu, Timur, Nadir, Ghori etc was made up of “nobles” and no commoners. And the raped and pillaged were also ‘nobility’ to the last person.

    Everyone knows that the equivalent of the original Rajtarangini was in Persian, which was translated and corrupted in order to misguide people like you!

    Then ‘everyone’ would also be aware of the names of the ‘original’ Persian book and its author. How about enlightening the less knowledgeable.

    i have never understood why so many people just love to believe lies, but clearly they do!

    Yup, beats me how can 1.2 billion people be so stupid.Recommend

  • Wonderer

    @Mohsin:

    Dear Sir, I must educate you.

    All Kashmiris regularly vote and elect their own leaders in free and fair elections. During the election to elect the present democratic government the Kashmiris turned out in record numbers to elect the grandson of The Lion of Kashmir, Sheik Abdullah, as their Chief Minister. The turnout was 80%, an all India record. (The same Sheik Abdullah who advised the Kashmiri Maharaja not to join Pakistan and accede to India.)

    And, those who are paid agents of Pakistan like Huriat Conference did not even dare to take part in elections. Only once a member of Huriat Conference took part but lost miserably.

    By the way, why does not Pakistan let Kashmiris in the area occupied illegally by it allow to elect their leaders?Recommend

  • Rex Minor

    wonderer

    Why are you getting worked up, you told us that you were born in 1936, and at 11 yeras age lived the horrors of Partition! Sorry, you are biased and as such diqualified to decide the future of Kashmiris. Let the Kashmiris decide their future- if the muslims of Pakistan feel the pain of kashmiris, then let them. This is their business. Dr manmohan Singh is a man of vision and he did propose once to the self appointed military President, that the borders cannot be altered but can be made meaningless. This is what we the europeans have been working on and have almost achieved in a shangan agreement. Ofcourse Uk does not participate and wants to remain on the left side. You are the devil’s advocate in raising questions, let us see if you are good at answering a question?
    Make all borders meaningless between India and Pakistan? Any objection? If not then this is what Dr Manmohan Singh should put on the table for discussion with Pakistan civil leaders now.

    Rex Minor Recommend

  • Mustafa Moiz

    As I said, Indians will be all nice and supportive as long as you criticize your own country and compare how bad it is to India, the model of democracy and beacon of hope for mankind, and allow them to do the same. As soon as you criticize their obviously flawed actions, be ready to be burned alive.Recommend

  • Rex Minor

    Why America wo’nt help is because the Amis are not indigenous people but have a diverse ancestory. They tick collectively when they suffer from paranoia or when they smell oil: Let the Kashmiris, and there are quite many clever one in Pakistan as well as in foreign countries, sign a contract with the American and French oil companies for exploration in the valley. The chances are in their favour, where muslims live the oil feels comfortable and flows under their feet.
    The clintonian lady would soon ask the UNO for a No Fly Zone and the west is involved.

    Rex MinorRecommend

  • prabhjyot singh madan

    @kaalchakra:
    I cannot understand, are you a Pakistani or a Indian. If you are a Pakistani rightist no problem. My ancestorory is from pindi and gujranwala. Can you talk sense ? I feel pain when the land of my ancestors goes through turmoil. Every word I type , I full of sorrow. Please talk sense. Sat Sri akal, , slam . I miss our soil. Just talk sense buddy.Recommend

  • ashok

    Only Indian constitution can give “AZADI” to talk and ask “AZADI”.

    Want to try Paksitan armytution or Jehaditution?

    Remember East Pakistan, where 95% asked half AZADI and what they got? Genocide by Punjabi Muslim Army of Pakistan in whcih 3 MILLION fellow citizens were killed and 300,000 females raped in 1971. Google figure may vary but content won’t.

    Baloch asked mini-Azadi and what did Pakistan army gave them? Daylight kidnapping, torture and DUMPING of mutilated bodies on remote roads for animals to eat. Even the Supreme Court of Pakistan can not force Pakistan army to release those who were kidnapped and tortured. Case is still pending since last 3 years with no satisfactory results.

    So, be careful what you wish. Every Indian especially Kashmiri Muslim should thank Allah for they did not end in Pakistan in 1947. This is what Akbar Ahmad, the editor of Asian Age and India Today once said.Recommend

  • ….

    I am surprised to read not even ONE empathetic comment by our neighbors. They are so quick to point out OUR faults but you have to hand it to us that that when our fellow Pakistanis (minorities or not) voice their frustration, anger and sorrow you have an out pour of sympathy albeit there a few self righteous comments which are sickening for an educated Pakistani. But one thing for sure is the diversity in view points!!!!!!!!

    All of you are repeating the same things over and over again. Its seems each of you are trying to out do the others foul mouth. You are all appalling and the likes of you have the audacity to lecture us!!!!!. Has anyone of you cared to read the links in the article? If you were really plural and secular like you preach a million times to us, you would have heard the author out in a sane manner!!!! Stop preying on the author like a pack of hyenas and stop bringing MY country into it.

    @Author: In this world might is power but the human emotion of hope will never go away.
    May the energy around us bring peace to the whole world and fill our hearts with kindness for the other! Recommend

  • A well-wisher

    @Haroon Rashid:

    “The problem, my friend, is us- the Pakistanis. Lets be honest, and lets accept that the world is fed-up with our self righteousness and our hypocrisy.
    We needle our neighbours, sponsor the Taliban, shelter Osama, burn American flags, and see Western conspiracy behind each of our problems.
    After all that, we still want the west to solve our problems, force India to hand over Kashmir to us- us, a country that kills Muslims, after we have proclaimed how we are the Mamlukat-e-Khudadad.
    Lets improve ourselves, before, we shoot our bolt, and froth from our mouths about evil Indians, and callous westerners…”

    A very sensible and honest post. As to the hypocrisy that you mention, add Balochistan to the comment. How can Pakistani establishment shed crocodile tears for Kashmiris, while brutally oppressing the Baloch and denying them the right to self-determination?Recommend

  • http://delhi akash

    @Pollack, thanks for correcting me. Yep I must admit, it made me speechless after knowing that author is from India.

    I mean the whole narrative was so typical Pakistani, India kills its minorities, US is siding towards India because of economy, viewing Kashmir freedom through the lens of religion, the ignorance(or deliberate ignorance) about elections in Kashmir, the ignorance about the conditions of UN plebiscite, ignorance about human rights issues in China. I thought it was all coming from a Pakistani and not just any Pakistani but extreme centre of right.

    On the funny side we(soft fascist state) are capable of producing some gems too! I understand ET will never have writers like MJ Akbar here but atleast the moderators are doing excellent jobs in letting our views known and published. Kudos to them. Recommend

  • http://NYC Thomas

    @Shahnawaz:

    Well india can finish you off when they decide. They may have been nice so far, but one day a billion Indians will walk into Kashmir and stomp you to death.So be careful, your wish will come true.Recommend

  • Wonderer

    @Rex Minor:

    I must make a submission, Sir.

    You write,”—– you —–, and at 11 yeras age lived the horrors of Partition! Sorry, you are biased and as such diqualified to decide the future of Kashmiris.”

    I point out to you that I do not “decide”. I only put forward my point of view for consideration/rejection in a debate. You call me “biased”. Should you not instead regard me as a knowledgeable person with first-hand personal experience? Should you not appreciate my efforts to save Kashmiri Hindus, Sikhs and Buddhists from experiencing similar “horrors of Partition”? Do you think the Pakistanis will let these people stay in their centuries old abodes? Have they not already forcibly thrown out Kashmiri Pundits from the valley?

    The rest of what you have written is known to me very well. And, yes I do support wholeheartedly the efforts of my Prime Minister to solve all problems with Pakistan.

    I am sure you must have taken my earlier advice to do a bit of research and find out the answers to the following TWO questions:

    1) How did Pakistan make it impossible for the plebiscite to be held in J&K as required by UN Security Council RESOLUTION 47 of 21 APRIL 1948?

    2) How is Pakistan trying to keep the Kashmir valley on the boil by infiltrating terrorists into J&K and by using its paid agents nurtured in the valley?

    Kindly disclose your findings for the benefit of many in Pakistan who are still misinformed. I may add here for your information that I comment on these blogs with the main purpose of removing disinformation as far as is possible. I hope you will help me in this noble cause.

    Cheers!Recommend

  • A well-wisher

    The global community does not tolerate Islamic supremacism based separatist movements any longer. Pakistani establishment can keep beating this dead horse for ever and continue to spend 65% of its budget on the military that is supposed to capture Kashmir, but there is going to be no redrawing of borders possible anymore.Recommend

  • Mustafa Moiz

    @JihadWatch:
    That’s what Iran says, not Pakistan. Recommend

  • Rex Minor

    Wonderer,
    Of course you have the knowledge and the personal expeience. And unless you come out with a vision, you are considered biased and status quo is not a solution nor acceptable. I am not a Pakistani but as a humanist muslim concern myself with victims. You should appreciate that India is the occupying power and is therefore responsible for the kashmiri citizens. They need not and must not face the trauma you went through. People need freedom with dignity, not a secular democracy or a khalifa state per say. India in its entire history was never a single entity, with a single language and a common culture. It was a land of diverse Nations, each with its own language, separate cultures intertwind and very rich in spirtuality. Today India is a secular democracy but in the process of keeping its citizens enslaved as one Nation have lost its uniqueness of being a country of non violence and spirtuality. No other leader in the world is known to me who could come up with non violence resistance which Mahatma Gandhi is accredited for. Leaders of other Nations have followed successfuly his steps.

    The choice for every occupier is very simple, allow the people to decide their future and create harmony among the people of the world or use the ancient practice of force to keep them in single unit, denying the basic human rights. This is what we in Europe have learnt from the past and have been practicing it for over 60 years. A union of small and large cuntries each independent and sovereign but for the sake of common good, European laws are being legislated gradualy. In your part of the world Kashmiris remain occupied by India and Pakistan!

    Rex MinorRecommend

  • Rex Minor

    Wonderer

    PS
    It matters not what the UNO has dictated or how Pakistan has failed to carry out their obligation, military force is being used by India to keep kashmiris occupied. I am also of the opinion that States which terrorise other folks have no ground to name resistance as terrorism.Recommend

  • Shabir

    Please stick to the arguments made in the article. For F’s sake, what has all these BS arguments got to do with the points made in this write-up? You all seem to be charged by hyper-nationalistic agendas rather than looking at the argument objectively. Recommend

  • manish

    @kaalchakra:

    that is an outright forgery! It was written under British tutelage, in 1896, under the supervision of a known forger one Mr. Norom Anderson, of London.

    well, by your admission it means that britishers could forsee what would happen 52 years later, and therefore made arrangements so that indians could lay their claim on kashmir…..very, ingenious of the britishers, but unfortunately they could not forsee the two world wars in between.Recommend

  • Wonderer

    @Rex Minor:

    You have obviously not taken my advice. You have found out nothing about what Pakistan has been doing, and continues to do in Kashmir.

    Your statement that “military force is being used by India to keep kashmiris occupied” is factually untrue. The military is doing nothing of the kind. It is engaged only in protecting the borders of India against aggression and infiltration. The J&K Police, and some central paramilitary forces in aid of Police, maintain Law and Order under the supervision of a democratically elected Government of J&K.

    You also have to be told that there is no OCCUPATION by India. The portion of Kashmiri state under Indian control is legally a part of India. The portion under Pakistani control, and the part gifted by Pakistan to China are the only illegally OCCUPIED parts. Let me educate you on the fact that there is no elected member in the National Assembly of Pakistan from the illegally occupied Kashmir because that area is not legally a part of Pakistan.

    You are obviously a person hopelessly misinformed due to Pakistani propaganda. You would do yourself a big favor if you educate yourself about FACTS AND TRUTH. You are not going to get any further advice or education from me

    Best of Luck!Recommend

  • Wonderer

    @Rex Minor:

    PS

    You have said, “It matters not what the UNO has dictated or how Pakistan has failed to carry out their obligation……”

    In that case will you please advise all Pakistani bloggers to stop demanding plebiscite in J&K, and blaming India for not holding it?

    You owe that much to yourself.Recommend

  • Wonderer

    @Rex Minor:

    Thanks for revealing that you are a “humanist muslim”. Now I understand you better.

    For your information a humanist cannot be a Muslim. and a Muslim cannot be a humanist. I know you will not understand this, and i do not blame you for that. If you are interested in knowing what you actually are, please study J, Krishnamurti.

    Your latest endeavor is on a subject I have been teaching for the past 27 years. You would not have wasted so much time in this audacious effort if you had known this. Needless to say that your advice is of not much use for me. And, you would hot have offered the advice if you had the wisdom to know that the word “occupy” must be used with utmost responsibility.Recommend

  • Wonderer

    @Rex Minor:

    PS

    The last sentence of my previous comment should be read as:

    And, you would not have offered the advice if you had the wisdom to know that the word “occupy” must be used with utmost responsibility.Recommend

  • kaalchakra

    Manish, don’t be so smart. Why are you hiding the fact that Hindus had bribed the man, and that the British hated Muslims because of the mutiny in which Hindus sided with the British. So this was part of the British reward to Hindus for their loyalty.

    Achyuth Patwardhan has written extensively about it. As the Holy Scripture says – Read and believe..Recommend

  • ayesha

    @kaalchakra: “As our hero, the Great Quaid used to say – “Muslim ho tau League mein auo”, the new slogan has to be – “Muslim ho tau Pakistani ban”.”

    Does this also apply to the 150 million Muslims that live in India? Are you willing to take them? Do you think an Indian Muslims would want to be part of a Pakistan?

    BE careful with your slogans. Kashmir valley has 4 million Muslims rest of India has 150 milion Muslims.Recommend

  • G. Din

    @Wonderer:
    Add to your list:
    12 Why is the Chief Executive of Ghulam Kashmir appointed by Islamabd?
    Any other suggestions from commentators?Recommend

  • Rex Minor

    Wonderer
    You are living in an ancient culture and are not prepared to come to terms with 21st century. Your advice to me is to read krishnamurti, to know myself. Perhaps you should know that in a democratic country one does not use military against its citizens. Indian super army made up mainly of Sikhs was once used against the sikh civilians, blowing up their dreams of a Nations forcing them to seek asylum across the world as far away as Australia and Canada. i admit that in your part of the world, this is not unusual practice, and was exploited by the Brits during two hundred years of occupaton.
    India is responsible for its own actions and Pakistan has to clean up in front of their house. I am just an observer and have no stakes in it:

    Rex MinorRecommend

  • Vikram

    @Shahnawaz:
    Kashmir was 100% Hindu at one time before Islamic invaders forced people to convert. Most Muslims in Kashmir are decendents of Kashmiri Pandits.

    Maharajh of Kashmir was the owner of Kashmir. When Pakistanis played Kargil during the partition time, Maharajah choose to join India.

    Pakistan attacked Kshmir that has decided to remain independent.

    India has more Muslims then Pakistan, so Kashmir no way can be a part of Pakistan.

    If Kashmir ever becomes a part of Pakistan, Kashmiris will be treated like slaves, just like Baloch or Bangalis.

    I don’t think any Indian Muslim in their right mind would want to go and live in Pakistan.
    please watch this video..Musharraf and an Indian Muslim

    Pervez Musharraf Grilled by Questions fired at him Part-2 – YouTube

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FtAJ40BPnk
    4 min – Mar 10, 2009 – Uploaded by DennislepchaRecommend

  • Vikram

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kP9JCusfje0

    Wattch this video ……… an Indian Muslim and Musharraf

    This will give you some idea about what is going on in KashmirRecommend

  • Rex Minor

    wonderer,
    The moderator has apparently deciined to publish my reply?

    Rex MinorRecommend

  • Vikram

    Author says “How can one explain the greatness of Indian constitution to them? How can one convince the mother of Sameer Rah who was trampled under the boots of the “world’s largest democracy” or to the 5,000 odd families who wait for their victims of enforced disappearances to return home safely to believe in the greatness of Indian constitution?”

    Just show them the video of the guy who was shot by rangers a few months ago? Tell them story of Mukhtar Mai who was ganag raped by 5 Muslim men while she held “KORAN” in her hand. After they finished with her she still had “KORAN” in her hand.
    Four of the 5 men were aquitted because Pakistan’s constitution based on Islam required 4 pious Muslim men who actually saw “Mukhtar Mai” being penetrated. What baout 5 Muslim women who were buried alive because they refused to marry men chosen by their Muslim families. Recommend

  • Wonderer

    @G. Din:

    Thanks for adding the 12th but I wonder any Pakistani will read even all the other 11, leave aside finding answers to them. Their minds are conditioned to such an extent that they are fearful of truth. They believe in Allah they say, and insist He is the One who does everything, and nothing can happen except by His divine will, yet refuse to see what Allah is doing to Pakistan. They even think they can keep indulging in all kinds of nefarious activities without fear of divine retribution. Everything is permissible if declared to be in the name of Allah.

    Closed minds!Recommend

  • Wonderer

    @Vikram:

    Many thanks for the links to the two very interesting YouTube videos.

    After seeing them I came across another interesting one. It was a pleasure indeed to see an intelligent Pakistani youth who could put Musharraf, no less, to shame. See here:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tTDFG2rJ-6g&feature=endscreen

    I wonder how many Pakistanis will look in the mirror.Recommend

  • manish

    Manish, don’t be so smart. Why are you hiding the fact that Hindus had bribed the man, and that the British hated Muslims because of the mutiny in which Hindus sided with the British. So this was part of the British reward to Hindus for their loyalty.
    Achyuth Patwardhan has written extensively about it. As the Holy Scripture says – Read and believe..

    although i don’t know who achyut patwardhan is , but even without reading him, i can fairly judge that he is a typical jholawala comrade, who is out with his own mission to write history.

    shall i add, when it comes to writing history, communists and islamists, are same: both distort past to suit their versions and intrests.

    although, this is so funny an alliance(one fiercely against god and the other godfearing to the level of nervous breakdown)
    i have never understood in my life: why leftists and islamists gel so well, i have only on vague understanding: perhaps both of them have strong dictatorial streak.Recommend

  • Mustafa Moiz

    @Loneliberal PK:
    India is secular by any definition? No it is not. You’re talking through your hat. Anyways, compare the percentage of Muslims in India to those of Hindus (in fact, throw in all religious minorities) in Pakistan. There’s about five times more Muslims as a percentage of the population in India than there are religious minorities in Pakistan. Of course they will show up here and there.
    Now lets also call Pakistan racist compared to America because we haven’t had a black president.Recommend

  • Indian

    @Mustafa Moiz:
    You need to know the below two defintions:
    Secularity (adjective form secular) is the state of being separate from religion, or not being exclusively allied to any particular religion.
    A secular state is a concept of secularism, whereby a state or country purports to be officially neutral in matters of religion, supporting neither religion nor irreligion.Recommend

  • http://tradersutra.com hariharmani

    @Rex Minor: Some time you write sense,then you drift and make no longer sense.For instance,you said Indian state used force against Sikh to crush so called Khalistan.I’m not Indian nor one apologist for it,but I have understanding of international law and territorial integrity as recognized by UNO and other responsible nations of the world.Here I go to repudiate your false notion.Scotland and Welsh are part of U.K.If these ,some of them have a beef with say U.K. Govt,they have democratic recourse,they can not ask for secession and resort to terrorism,same with New Jersey from USA,same with India,Tamilnadu,Punjab or for that matter Kashmir or U.P. at some point if they get Muslim,Tamil or Sikh majority in distant future same in N.J if they get Hindu,Latino or Muslim Majority,in fact the Township of Kendle Park part of Middlsex and Somerset have more Hindu live,we can not go into rebellion mood and start agitating for secession from USA and resort to terrorism,if we did we will be crushed as Lincoln Crushed the rebels during American Civil war.It is that clear,So your contention Indian Govt was wrong to crush Sikh and Kashmir mis adventure & rebellion .You are wrong in loosely writing Indian Govt was at fault ..Just it is accepted by international norm and law.It has legal standing.Good day,that is why Kashmir rebels have no support by any body worth mentioning.Just whinning that Americans do not support Muslims has no legs and will remains so for good,better Muslims like Jahangir ,Kaalchara and even you(I hate ,lumping you with them),understand this will be good for,us, all.Nice dayRecommend

  • Wonderer

    @Rex Minor:

    “I am just an observer and have no stakes in it:”

    That is excellent! Restrict yourself to observing.Recommend

  • Wonderer

    @hariharmani:

    You must be thanked for bringing out this important point for information of all, and particularly of Rex Minor.

    I am reminded of how Pakistan was interfering in India’s internal affairs when some misguided Sikhs were indulging in terrorist activities. Pakistan was providing them sanctuary, weapons and training (India also did that for Mukti Bahini, but their case was very different from that of Sikhs who were not being discriminated against or oppressed). The most interesting thing was the special programs Pakistan Radio used to broadcasts for inciting the Sikh masses in India. They used to read out portions of Sikh scripture and then interpret them to show, with their own distorted logic that Hindus are enemies of Sikhs. That is of course the reverse of Sikh teachings but one could see how they were experts at spreading hatred. They have used more sophisticated methods to spread hatred for Hindus among their own population.

    The Sikh rebellion fizzled out eventually, and the broadcasts promptly stopped. But the spread of hatred among their own people is taking itss toll now. Similar tactics are in use even today in Kashmir. They have tasted more success with Kashmiris than they had with Sikhs, but the end result will be no different.Recommend

  • Rex Minor

    Hariharman

    Must you also, a sensible under seven five, ignore the key point on correlation between democracy and the miliary. I repeat!
    No democratic country has the right to use military force against its Citizens in the 21st century….neither India nor any other country! The world has witnessed the splitting apart of the union of Soviet states and the union of slavs and where there was resistance it was duly crushed. US is an anomoly, a country of law but in practice is used to live outside the limits of law unchallenged domesticaly as well as outside the country. USA untilises its veto against the UN security council decisions which come into conflict with their interests and does not recognise the International criminal court. Besides in their early history one does not notice anything civil in their supposedly civil war. Incidently Scotland is destined to leave the UK union and one cannot imagine UK Govt sending their military to suppress secession.
    .
    .Rex MinorRecommend

  • Wonderer

    @Rex Minor:

    You have compelled me, by your ill concealed snide remarks, to once again tell you to talk only about what you know; otherwise restrict yourself to observing.

    You have written, “No democratic country has the right to use military force against its Citizens in the 21st century….”

    Your statement, once again, is factually UNTRUE, and audaciously presumptuous. You do not know what you are talking about. The TRUE and FACTUAL position is as follows.

    Most democratic countries, if not all, have democratically enacted legislation to cater to control of internal emergencies in which The Police and Paramilitary forces are proving to be, or have proven to be unable to handle the situation. There is a provision under the law to call the armed forces (Army, Navy and Air Forces) to take over and handle the internal emergency in such a situation. In legal terms it is called “Calling in aid of Civil Forces”. The armed forces in turn make sure that their calling is legal, for which they get a written directive from the competent authority.

    In most civilized nations like India, even before the armed forces take control of the situation a Flag March is conducted, usually under Curfew. This is to warn the populace to agitate in lawful ways or face the might of the forces. In most cases the leaders of the agitated masses start behaving themselves, and no use of force is needed. I may add here; when the situation is Shrinagar, Capital of Kashmir recently got worse due to stone throwing boys, a Flag March by the Indian Army was enough to bring the situation to normalcy.

    I know why you are trying these gymnastics of imagination. You want to prove that the Indian Army is crushing the Kashmiri civilians, and you cannot do it without these foolish and irresponsible statements. I have already told you this is only a self-serving Pakistani propaganda and nothing else. You will stop this if you are a sensible human being.

    I can assure all readers of this column, with utmost sense of responsibility, that the moment Pakistan stops infiltration from across the border, and reigns in its stooges in the Valley, the civil unrest will stop. And. Then there will be reduction is Indian forces stationed there, and NOT before that.Recommend

  • Ashish

    It is quite interesting to go thru all the comments in this blog. I am once again reiterating that India is not going to give away a single inch of Kashmir to Pakistan or let Kashmir free because it will put whole India on risk. Just use the logic and keep your heart with yourself. You will find the answer. Giving away Kashmir will be suicidal for India. Whatever is your thought process , this is the truth. Everything is fair in love and war . On both the sides of border you may get many arguments for and against it which , in fact , is useless. Recommend

  • http://tradersutra.com hariharmani

    @Rex Minor: There is no point in argue with you,Scotland have distinct culture and are very law abiding people,you are totally living in fools paradise,if you think they are going their separate way.As far as USA is concerned,if it was not there,the Muslims would be running wild,as they are doing in Syria,Libya,and other lands of Middle-East,and you know what is going on in Pakistan,you won’t have America to kick around after Afghanistan pull out,let me see how and whom you gone blame,as an American citizen I’m totally opposed to mess around Islamic lands,they have taken vacation of senses,I thought you are not one of those radicals,like former USSR,you too are fated to go down in flames,but the problem is you want to take down India too,the people of India have awaken and the politics of appeasement did not work in recent election in India ,as Congress was routed,it will be worse in 2014,if they do not heed the warning of vote bank politics,desist from appeasement.USA for once has seen how difficult Pakistan mess is,and also the Commies in India have lost all standing,it will not face problem shoring up and strengthening relation with India and USA,that is where Pakistan must make adjustment in its own Foreign policy,but there are too many monkey wrench and flame throwers in that unfortunate land,but I’m an optimist,after it can not get any worse,it will get better,it will be good if you worry more for Pakistan than India/Kashmir,it has not done Pakistan any good since 1947.Good day,no hard feeling,I did the best remove cow webs.Recommend

  • Rex Minor

    Hariharmani
    Let us not pour out our opinions on world affairs. Roma duit fluid, nunc potens minus est( Rome has flourished long, it has no longer the power. Like the Imperial rome, the usa is on its last journey, the closure of their nine hundred overseas basis is inevitable, since the host countries do no longer wish their presence.

    The optimists are always optimistic about the future.

    Rex MinorRecommend

  • Rex Minor

    Mr Wonderer

    Your rhetoric has less substance and more spin. The cable network is bringing live of the atrocities which the Indian military commits on a daily basis. Your denial or relativising the occupation tactics fool no one. Your time is up- let the younger generation decide about the way of life in the future; peace or war? We have seen enough, Indians and Pakistanis have seen nothing yet.

    Rex MinorRecommend

  • G. Din

    @Rex Minor: to Wonderer
    *”Your time is up- let the younger generation decide about the way of life in the future; peace or war?”
    Let it be a good, hard-fought war! Do not tempt us with Islamic peace. It is too late for that!Recommend

  • Wonderer

    @Rex Minor:

    Mr. Rex Minor

    Thanks!

    “Substance” was not visible to you? “Spin” was too dizzying?

    Sorry.Recommend

  • wise counsel.

    @American:
    dear american, the indians are never riled on any issue.Have they ever been provoked to initiate any wars..Always they have been the defenders and never attackers.The attackers are the ones who are riled.The defenders have rights to defend and wont spare when attacked.Recommend

  • wise counsel.

    Dear ET
    To post a picture of the Indian tricolour burning and put it to such brutality can tear any indian apart and bring tears to his eyes.Burning of flags of other countries can be resorted only by callous and mean minded people and i am sure ET can do without publishing it .It can do no good for ET’s readership except harbour distaste among its ardent indian readers.Recommend

  • stenson

    @prabhjyot singh madan: Trust me – problems or no problems most Kashmiris see themselves as Pakistanis and want to joing Pakistan. That’s why India will always refuse a free and open referendum as demanded by the United Nations. Ask my grandmother whether she is Pakistani or Indian and like the vast majority of Kashmiris, she will respond Pakistani. The reality is that no one needs to fight over Kashmir. Kashmir will naturally align itself with Pakistan in the course of time since people can’t be held against their wish forever. The British and the Indians together cheated Pakistan and the people of Kashmir but this historical injustice is not forgotten by the Kashmiri diaspora.Recommend

  • pravhjyot singh madan

    @stenson:
    I still state, we will not allow our kashmiri brethren to commit suicide by joining Pakistan. The United nation referendum is about joining India or Pakistan not independent Kashmir. Ladakh is Buddhist and Jammu is largely Hindu, talk sense brother. Even un resolution requires Pakistan to bring back their army and what about the part they ceded to China in 1960′s. Think and learn . I am a minority Sikh living happily here. Balochistan wants to break free and you want pristine Sufi Kashmir in Pakistan for exploitation. I am sorry, we cannot allow kashmiris to commit suicide in pakista.. sat Sri akal, salam, cheerio.Recommend

  • jahandad

    @Akash:
    Mr akash while on one hand Indians have almost killed those 300million Muslims in India, by simply strangulating them financially and socially ,,,,remember Indian Muslims are 30 percent of Indian population and yet in government jobs they are less than 1 per sent ,they would have been starved to death by you cruel had there been no g cc Arabs ,that today these 300millions are still surviving like a crushed falcon that’s left alive just to bear the hard crunch of life,,,in Hindu India,,, and regarding Kashmir remember why are you flying so high , we Muslims united India and it with justice for 1000 years , before that small states with rajas burning ladies alive and putting melted silver and bronze in the ears of untouchable Hindus , we Muslims brought conscious to you ,,,and you are not able to hold that India for 60 years with justice so what will happen , surely history will repeat it self ,,,,,,,,we don’t claim just Kashmir but also delhi and Hyderabad plus equal land divisions,,, and remember when you try and actually with your christian western uncles do strangulate Pakistan , then one day the injured lion will come out cage and will tear you apart and remember their will be no second birth for any Indian Hindu,,,,,Recommend

  • Wonderer

    @stenson:

    I am sorry Sir, you are not aware of the actual position. Kindly see all my comments, and particularly those addressed to Rex Minor to know the facts.Recommend

  • Wonderer

    @stenson:

    “…… most Kashmiris see themselves as Pakistanis and want to joing Pakistan”

    That is not correct Sir. Many surveys conducted by International organizations have proved that comprehensively. Most want Azadi, and Pakistan supports that because it know it can gobble up the valley the moment Indian Army leaves. They tried that 1947/48 and in 1965. Besides, there are a large number of Hindus, Sikhs and Buddhists India cannot throw away to wolves.

    Please read my comments above to understand how Pakistan deliberately subverted the UN process for Plebiscite and made it impossible.Recommend

  • Wonderer

    @jahandad

    There are different views about the condition of Muslims in India. The views you hold reflect very poorly on India as a secular nation. Is India really secular?

    The answer to this question is available in a video you can see through the link given below. That should help all kind of views to be rationalized. Why not get the matter clarified through the “horses mouth” as they say?

    Please be my guest!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kP9JCusfje0 Recommend

  • gujranwala789

    @IndianDude:

    Because kashmiris are racially related to us, that is not the case with chinese muslims.Recommend

  • gujranwala789

    @ayesha:

    No interest whatsoever in indian muslims, they are racially not related to pakistanis. Kashmiri muslims are racially related to most of the pakistani muslims and hence a sense of belonging.Recommend

  • G. Din

    @gujranwala789:
    “@ayesha:
    No interest whatsoever in indian muslims, they are racially not related to pakistanis. Kashmiri muslims are racially related to most of the pakistani muslims and hence a sense of belonging.”

    Has the Sun had any luck rising in the east in Gujranwala?Recommend

  • Ashish

    @Gujranwala 789: Is it so that Kashmiris are racially related to you ? If we go by this logic , all Pakistanis and Kashmiris are related to Indians and the whole world is related to each other. Dude , before writing any thing , use some logic.Recommend

  • G. Din

    @Yasin: to Shahnawaz
    “Yes, Kashmiri identity is different from mainstream India. But so is say a state from South India. If they can live with India, some of us can too. “
    Neither South India nor Kashmir are alien to what we call the collectivity of states and people from all over this blessed land, India, living as equals, helping each other live in dignity and with self-respect. No one can promise Nirvana to another but there is a promise that if we have to go through Hell, we will all go through it together. When we prosper, we will share that prosperity with others in this Union! That is what “nationhood” is all about!Recommend

  • G. Din

    @manish:
    “i have never understood in my life: why leftists and islamists gel so well, i have only on vague understanding: perhaps both of them have strong dictatorial streak.”
    Because both of them are followers of fascist cults! You need the same mindset to follow any cult!
    “Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Führer!” (“One People, One Government, One Leader”).
    To those three, you might want to add “One Book”!Recommend

  • http://twitter.com/mraliahmad Ali Ahmad

    If by the mere force of numbers a majority should deprive a minority of any clearly written constitutional right, it might, in a moral point of view, justify a revolution.Recommend

  • Madhav Das

    I would like to point out that unless the Kashmiri Hindus also ask for independence the state of Kashmir will never be allowed to leave India. Only when everybody asks for it and not just Muslims alone can it happen.
    Otherwise it will be considered just another separatist Muslim movement and the world is not stupid to allow another violent Islamic nation like Chechnya or a Bosnia to be created.
    Kashmiris should also realize that backing the cause of an independent Kashmir will also embolden the Baluchis to ask for independence from Pakistan.
    That is why beyond a certain point even Pakistan cannot back an independent Kashmir movement.Recommend

  • Sane

    Looking at the comments……. Intolerance is well established by Indian Commentators. That’s the attitude creating problem in the region.

    .Recommend

  • Sane

    @Madhav Das
    If independence is justified only when all classes and religions are united for, then why this was not applicable for East Timor and Sudan.Recommend