Religion or science: That is not the question

Published: March 19, 2012

It is high time for us to have a society that does not intertwine science and religion, as both these subjects deal with different aspects of life and must be approached separately. PHOTO: AFP

The argument begins with this question: why should science and religion be kept separate? The answer depends on what you believe; however, let me present my case in favour of the separation of science and religion.

Science is the study of nature and how it functions. The beauty of science is that when a theory is presented, scientists of that field do not immediately agree with the theoretical claims. Rather, they put the theory to intensive criticism and tests. In many cases, the theories are disproved on the basis of counter evidence or errors that are deduced. If the scientists are unable to produce counter evidence or sufficient flaws in the theory, then supportive evidence is analysed, keeping in mind that the plausibility of a theory depends on the number of supportive empirical evidences provided by researchers.

In contrast, religion is entirely based on dogmas, which in most cases cannot be denied, questioned, critiqued or revoked.

The real problem arises when religious scholars start claiming new scientific discoveries as something that had been ‘revealed’ to them thousands of years ago. However, this claim takes place only when the scientific discoveries are compatible with their held beliefs. If the new discoveries, regardless of their significance, are contradictory to their beliefs, the theory is out rightly opposed and most of the time its researchers are persecuted, banished, and shunned. For example, when Galileo supported the Copernican theory through his research and study, he was charged with heresy and was persecuted.  He was later forced to withdraw his support for the theory in exchange of a less harsh prison sentence.

From the time of Galileo’s death in 1641, it took the Catholic Church some 350 years until 1992 to acknowledge that Galileo was indeed correct in supporting the Copernican theory. For those 350 years, several generations were deliberately misinformed and their chances of researching and building on Galileo’s findings were greatly affected.

However, Islam in this case, does not seem to overtly counter science since the history of scientific advancements in medieval Arabia is evident of this. It was more of the religious followers; the clerics, the leaders who were at certain times against scientific and rational thought. This notion is also supported by many modern historians, such as E G Browne, George Sarton, Sayili, and scientists such as Dr. Neil deGrass Tyson. They have made this case by blaming famous medieval Muslim theologians, Al-Ghazali and Al-Ashari, for causing the decline of rational thought in Arabia.

However, the historians’ blame on theologians is not unjustified; al Ghazali in his book “The Decisive Criterion for Distinguishing Islam from Clandestine Unbelief” implied that in case of conflict between reason and revealed text, priority should be given to the former over the latter (al Ghazâlî 1961,195 = 2002, 112). Furthermore, while disputing with some of Avicenna’s (Bu Ali Sina) teachings, he added a fatwa at the end of another of his books, “Incoherence of the Philosophers”, declaring that everybody who teaches parts of Avicenna’s more controversial topics is an apostate and can be sentenced to death (al Ghazâlî 1997, 230).

Although it is true that al Ghazali’s fatwa was not the only cause of scientific decline in medieval Arabia, there were political and economical factors, as well. However, when it comes to following a fatwa, the followers take it seriously, especially if the fatwa is coming from an authoritative figure such as, Imam al Ghazali.

If anyone thinks that these things don’t happen in today’s day and age, they would be wrong, as more recently, there was a case of a British Imam’s attempt to reconcile the theory of evolution with Islam. The result of his attempt was catastrophic for him. He was stripped off of his Imamat, received death threats, was shunned from the community and, worst of all, he was called an apostate. All this happened because he claimed that the theory of evolution could be compatible with religion, but sadly he was not given a chance to explain his standpoint.

As we are aware, overwhelming evidence supports the theory of evolution; however, since it is deemed contradictory to religious beliefs, it is outrightly opposed. Another example would be the opposition to stem cell research, details of which cannot be elaborated in this small space.

I have only presented a few examples to show how religious arguments have interfered with scientific progress. History, however, is filled with instances which are detrimental to the progress of reason and rationality.

Can you imagine where we would be if there were no religious interferences in scientific progress?

It is high time for us to have a society that does not intertwine science and religion, as both these subjects deal with different aspects of life and must be approached separately.

Danish Shah

Danish Shah

The author is an IT professional by day and a quasi couch/facebook/twitter activist by night. He tweets @Danisshhhh.

The views expressed by the writer and the reader comments do not necessarily reflect the views and policies of The Express Tribune.

  • kaalchakra

    hariharmani, gulliblenomore

    Arabs are much better than ‘fAsians’ or ‘Easterners’. The only reason they have not been able to reach their full potential is that they are ‘nations’. They have not fully given up their pre-Islamic jahil history. Pakistan is blessed because it is the unique ‘nation’ that was granted by Allah a chance to start completely afresh, guided by nothing but Islam. With Arabic language, Pakistan will go where it deserves to go, will achieve what is its right to achieve!Recommend

  • Atheist

    There are many contrdictions in Quran. As an example Quran states that god “set” or “put” mountains on earth so that it does not shake. This is absolutely in conflict with the scientific view of the creation of mountains that actually rise upwards due to plate tectonics and do not play any role in stoping the earthquakes/shaking.Recommend

  • http://lonepkliberal.wordpress.com Loneliberal PK

    Rex Minor,

    Perhaps a message that is timeless and universal, should have been revealed in language that is universally understood? Maybe telepathically to all humans?

    Clearly God would’ve noticed that the whole universe does not speak Arabic. And would have had the foresight to know that when it is subsequently translated, there would inevitably be problems with its interpretation. No?

    The languages we speak are perfectly fine, and we don’t need to Arabize our country any more than it already is. The only reason we speak English is because it’s internationally spoken and understood. Or at least, far more commonly than Arabic is spoken and understood in the world.Recommend

  • http://tradersutra.com hariharmani

    Science,starts with hypothesis,then it is formulated into a theory,then it verified with all the knowledge and tools available then it is accepted with a caveat,if and when disproved with other convincing evidence,then discarded.Religion has no such limitation,it is Faith base ‘Take it or leave it”.Some civilization,society,culture are faith base and some fact based,they are parallel lines which will never meet,any attempt to confuse and merge will not work.Many ,people faced with choosing one or other are faced with choice,do not like that and are uncomfortable and confused,in fact,one need not,you can go to a place of worship and then go to lab,and do research,most intelligent people find this ,easy enough,and do not find this difficult.It is only fundamentalist,find this hard.I have never found this too difficult.In fact,truely ethical and moral grounded people do not need 10 commandment,it is common sense ‘Do on to others what you want done to you’,however most people are simple common folks who need,books,preachers and pandits and sheik.Nothing wrong with it unless one says only “my way”.There is where enlightened Govt,civic,social and people of sense tolerance come in,as this can not be voluntary,law and order has to be enacted.Reason and logic will not work,as humans are not monolethic.,they come in various shape,mind and kind.The reason some nations seem to do well and some are basket cases,it is because they are for variety of reason unable to separate religion from working of state,unless they solve that problem,there is not much hope,for progress,many society know the problem and remedy also,but “Who will bell the cat”,that is what keeps 3rd world from joining progressing modern world.I have used reasoned,mild words and T.E. should find this acceptable.Thanks.Recommend

  • kaalchakra

    nasamjh and gulliblenomore

    Not all hearsay is equal. We believe what we hear from reliable sources. Would Muslims be blessed with Islam had they simply refused to hear from the last Prophet of Allah?

    To me the 70,000 fields of study sprouting from the Holy Quran sounds totally believable, given how wonderful and noble the Quran is.Recommend

  • kaalchakra

    Why God used Arabic

    When my sufi friends are faced with ignorant people they avoid explaining the details and simply say that Allah didn’t really speak in Arabic, that it just a feeling or knowledge that got beamed from Allah to Prophet Muhammad because the latter knew merely Arabic.

    That is a good way to satisfy ignorant people but Muslims themselves know the full truth – the Quran cannot be translated. All references to the Quran have meaning and authenticity in ANY discussion if and only if they refer to the true Quran in Arabic.

    Arabic is a unique language, created by Allah for a unique Islamic purpose of dawah. It is first and last, and everything in the middle. Recommend

  • http://tradersutra.com hariharmani

    @Rex Minor,when you are stymied by facts,logic and reasoned argument,then you instead of better logic and argument go back to blanket statement which have no legs,pl,move the debate forward so that our lagging nations move forward and overcome handicaps.Just making statement without back up argument for making Arabic teaching compulsory in Pakistan has no proof of possible benefit.I remember back in India in early 50′s there was agitation in India by some crazy northern folks to out law English and replace with Hindi even in South of India,it met with violent riots and thank God we beat it back,imagine India today without English and the world,in China,Indonesia,Malaysia,the vigor with which they study English.I beg of you to be thoughtful and not encourage demagues,more fuel to light up Pakistan,words have consequences.,Pakistan has enough Arabic influence,it does not need more.I have no axe to grind,I live in USa,if You guys are burdened with Arabic it is no sweat of my nose,but it was my view,counter with solid argument,not more blanket statement,which has no leg,that is all,Mr Liberal Pk is very thoughtful well grounded person,his argument can not be that easily refuted,if it was easy,I would have taken the challenge,I do not believe argument for argument sake.What is easiest way of All mighty God to get His Message across,Use Arabic or English,Hindi,Urdu,German,French or Mandhrin?Would He not reach more people that way if He does not want to use Telepathy,just Answer that?.I have respect for all,malice for none,but some can not be reasoned with.Thank you.Recommend

  • not impressed

    here we go again athiests vs muslims vs liberals vs normal peopleRecommend

  • Reddy

    Does ET have mullahs as it’s moderator, when a nut job like Kaalchakra attacking every religion with out any base or facts, you are editing my comments which i am directly typing from your holy book,are you ashamed of your quranic teachings or truth is hurting bigotry.doesn’t your holy book say longest distance on earth is distance between sunset point to sunrise point or doesn’t it say mountains are the pillars of the earth.Recommend

  • Reddy

    @kaalchakra: “Quran cannot be translated” ya, there were Arabs even before the words Islam or Muslims exist on the earth and to say “Arabic is a unique language, created by Allah for a unique Islamic purpose of dawah” is actually buying a helmet before the bikeRecommend

  • Reddy

    @Critical:
    “The religious leaders were in fact scientists who researched about science in gurukuls and madrassas”

    there is a difference, unlike vedas which are created,invented by humans and never in history they were claimed to be the word of the god or they came from heavens.that’s the reason you are still using sine,cosine,number system,calendar in earth days,weeks,years of 2nd century BC,including plastic surgery (Egyptian,indian civilizations) and some of those theories proven to be false and we no longer use them,can you say the same thing about quranic teachings.resounding NORecommend

  • http://peddarowdy.wordpress.com Anoop

    @elementary:

    Absolutely. Love is the need of the day. Not Religion.

    If any cult-like ideology tells you this HAS to be the way to find God/Happiness/whatever, that crosses the line for me.

    I am not disagreeing with you but getting definitions right.Recommend

  • http://blogs.tribune.com.pk/author/430/faraz-talat/ Faraz Talat

    Ah, Reddy. The best way to get your comment published is to dare the moderators to not publish it, or call them ‘mullahs’ or “liberal fascists” if they don’t.

    (I bet a mod smiled and shook his/her head reading this)Recommend

  • http://tradersutra.com hariharmani

    Esteemed readers of the Tribune Express,what boggles my mind is the total lack of objectivity,common sense and rudimentary knowledge of history,nations,languages spoken in the world.When we blog,and use P.C. inter net to communicate,how difficult is it , how to use information from reputedf scholar, use ,library ,UNO or govt agency to cross check facts from fiction?is it we do not care for facts be damned?It shows many glaring lack of curiosity beside total disregards for facts and desire to grow one self.To me this perhaps the reason for lack of progress in many society,cultures and civilization.This myopic mentality got to change if we hope to progress and catch with world.Is there a shame if our children learn great Emperor Akbar was illiterate,he did not know how to read or write,yet he loved art,literature and he surrounded himself with best minds of the realm?Our kids will learn from that we too could be like him.If it was fact Prophet Mohamud was not literate,historical fact and used sribes to record his thoughts.What so bad about it?If God used Arabic,not French,Yeddish,or Greek the most spoken language of the ancient world,does Arabic need to be the best of all language in for ‘Believers”,it is not the most popular ,or most spoken,or most books published in the world.? Prophet only knew Arabic ,any other language makes little sense.It is fact,Spain of all country of Europe,least amount of book publication,yet Spain alone publishes more work than combined work of all Islamic world barring Turkey.Just google it,it is right there,just babbling Arabic is best etc,etc makes no sense whatsoever.It is not necessary for to be a good Muslim that even the desert of Arabia has the best sand?Arabia is a not very significant nation,it has 3 million Saudi and 4 million foreigners,fact,minus oil,no one is linning up except people from Sub-continent,that too for menial jobs.What I’m saying we must have healthy respect for fact and our life must be fact based.That’s all Good dayRecommend

  • http://religion-or-science-that-is-not-the-question khaleel ahmed

    Science is like a drone and religion is like Taliban.Recommend

  • Gullible Nomore

    @Reddy,
    Don’t worry, a lot of my comments get moderated as well. I wrote a well thought out comment in response to Mr/Ms. Intelektual but it never got pub’d. Sigh! Recommend

  • Asdf

    @Kaalchakra
    I think you are trolling big time. :)
    For others, Read Quran 33.50 if that doesn’t cure you, I don’t what else will.Recommend

  • Saff Shikan

    Gentleman, I completely disagree with the views of those who consider “thinking” “research” and “Scientific approach” to be the actual way of comprehension the things and putting the life in the same way. Scientific theories have take U-turns many times. As far as religion is concerned, I request you to have an analytic study of Quran, with context, surely you will be benefited. Don’t listen to Molvis, consult Quran, the scripture … If the driver is beginner or weak, it doesn’t mean you blame the car for it. Thank youRecommend

  • Gullible Nomore

    @Saff Shikan:
    “If the driver is beginner or weak, it doesn’t mean you blame the car for it”
    Wouldn’t you blame the car if the car has issues and is poorly engineered? Or would you still blame the driver?Recommend

  • http://tradersutra.com hariharmani

    @Asdf: I think Kaalchakra is not dumb or borderline nut,I have read his past blog,he used to write sense,but of late he has gone south,I guess,Ali Tanoli benign influence,write and make up facts as you go along,but people are catching to his trolling,sometime some one has to do the dirty work of pulling up and bring some kind of sense,otherwise the good Tribune will be another trash,in my opinion,whenever I cross line,and in my write up a slight chance to hurt real good people,T.E. in its wisdom with hold my comment,but it is rare.I’m honestly thankful for Pakistani people and T.E. to give this forum to express my thought,and I sincerely hope,I’m contributing something good and positive.I try to check facts to best of my ability,most of the time.Thank you..Recommend

  • Nasamajh

    @kaalchakra: you have got me wrong..i said i do not doubt the authenticity of my source.i gave that explanation to gullible nomore..

    what i said about the Quran is a part of my faith..in fact i believe every good thing and all the fields of study which are beneficial for the mankind sprout from the Holy Quran..

    to cut it short i’ll quote what poet said,

    “Falsafi ko behas k ander khuda milta nahin
    Doar ko suljha rha hai aur sira milta nahin”

    this whole discussion is the matter of faith..if one reads the Quran in the way it is supposed to be read not just Muslims but the whole world would realize the greatness of this book.. these people just need to change their jaundiced view about this Book..!!
    may Allah guide them and all of us..ameenRecommend

  • Gullible Nomore

    @intelektual
    So God is pure energy, and you know this because Quran mentions God as ‘noor’? Hmmm, but the Quran also mentions Moon as ‘noor’, does that mean the moon is also pure energy? I wrote a very detailed reply to your comment earlier but unfortunately it got moded. Hope this makes it thru…Recommend

  • Gullible Nomore

    @Nasamajh:
    Please guide us in reading the Quran as it is suppose to be read please! By the way, can you point to just one field of study that “sprouted” from Quran, and which wasn’t already being studied prior to Quran/Islam?Recommend

  • http://tradersutra.com hariharmani

    @Gullible Nomore:
    I’m very amused the way you ridicule these simple people,when I was in school,that was in around 17 or perhaps 18th century ,forgive me,it was so far in time,I forget I used ridicule my class mates like that,I was a terror,people changed side walk if they saw me walking on the same side walk,so there is hope for all..It is amazing,these folks never give up and come in for more ridicule,I do not know if they are masochists or sadists!.It is not their fault,they are thought in poor school,which does not prepare them to be questioning,curious,just robots,why they are hung up,it beats me.Take my own education,all though from reputable university and 7 years in professional Engineering,I was not ready to work and make living in USa,I had to reprogram myself and bottom up.I have empathy for these people,hence I tend to be educational in my write up,I do not know how much it help,I myself got changed very slowly from ritualistic,dogmatic Hindu to atheist/agnostic,the change was slow but profound,it helps if you are in West ,liberal or open minded,it also because as a Hindu,we are less rigid and do not have ferver of a “BELIEVER”,but there is no lure of heaven or hell fire of Hell,it certainly help at least in my case.Out of curiosity,were you a ‘Believer?”,you do not have to answer,if you do not want to,it is personnel. I have hunch,though.Good day.Recommend

  • Atif Baig

    @hassan khan:

    Who is this god person you speak of? No seriously! Who is it? And, is there any proof of its existence? In case you are thinking about pointing to scriptures as the proof, first google “circular reasoning” and “begging the question” fallacies and try to avoid those while presenting your argument.Recommend

  • Rex Minor

    Hariharmani
    loneliberal PK and others

    Why make everyhing diffiult and complex? I have no problems with your writings, but let me say it in a siimple form. Religion is the belief in a superhuman controlling power, called God which demands obedience and worship(oxford english dictionary). How and why is the beginning of padagogy which leads to knowledge and science.
    Those who are enlightened one and understand the language of the scriptures, have also the advantage to decode philosophy, mathematics and science.in the scriptures. I very much doubt if the translaters are able to do it. The rest is simply MOTHERHOOD.

    I do not come from the Indian subcontinent nor from North America, and as such do not always follow the logic and reasons of most of the bloggers coming from these parts of the world. Why on earth do you guys reckon that the language of ango-saxons or any other language including oriental languages could accurately translate and interpret one to one the scriptures written in hebrew or arabic languages?

    People of Pakistan are in a limbo, they speak different local languages and have implanted Urdu and english as lingua francas, and keep on quoting Quraan verses in their Engish and Urdu languages everytime they feel like it and later curse the clergy whose translations and interpretation they follow. Their lack of communications with one another is on account of their different cultures and misinterpretation of Quraan verses.

    Therefore my advice would be that they learn arabic language in schools and as a compulsary language if they wish to remain a uslim country.

    Rex MinorRecommend

  • http://tradersutra.com hariharmani

    @Rex Minor:
    I have great respect for people who are knowledgeable,it matters little if they are religious based or reason based,if you happen to read my earlier comment,they are two different school of thought,like parallel line never shall meet.I know what drove you to say People of Pakistan should learn Arabic,I beg to differ.You do not need to learn French or German, Greek or Sanskrit to get a handle on the philosophical Treaties,unless you are a scholar, for general masses at large,a good translation will do. Do you really think bad translation of scripture is root cause of problem in Pakistan or World at large? Please think it over.People have trouble putting two good sentences to gather without error,writing,balanced thinking is discipline,it has to be cultivated,it is studious effort,not easily mastered.Further more,the society,culture,civilization,I go further,general state of affair,even economic well being can not be under estimated.Even democracy,tolerance,once understanding of both religion,rational reasoning and logic have profound bearing.A person living and having the benefit of travel,varied open all encamping,education,you will,agree or concede ,has edge or advantage.It is fair to say.A person who has been brought up in Pakistan or rigid one kind of thinking of middle-east,can not be expected to suddenly able to appreciate,democracy,tolerance for other faith,understand to say mildly the problems of other sex.You may disagree with me,they say’ you can run but you can not hide.’Whenever a person or society ignores fact,write or rewrite history or facts on ground,as it suits him, as you go along, as reality on ground changes,in long run harm themselves,just as hate,envy,ignorance and greed harms who harbors them.As I grow and ripe in age,I have come to appreciate,we can always learn new trick(contrary to ‘can not teach old dog,new trick).Change is the rule of our visible universe,not otherwise.Things are constantly changing around us,all we have do is observe and remain curious.That’s all,hope it helps,have a good day.Recommend

  • http://lonepkliberal.wordpress.com Loneliberal PK

    Rex Minor,

    If you wish to do away with the difficulties and complexities, then look no further than atheism. The universe created itself. Just be happy, and be a source of happiness for others. The End.

    I’m sorry if I’m coming off as a little preachy. That is not my intention.

    I know it baffles you how we could all have sprung into existence without a designer and a definitive purpose. It baffles the scientists too, even though we have some excellent theories. But it is much more probable for a burst of raw energy to have come out on its own, and through the physical laws form a universe…than a complex, intelligent being coming into existence without rhyme, reason or purpose, and then designing the universe.
    .
    You assert that a scholarly knowledge of the scripture and its language would allow you to decode science and mathematics, but I ask you this: how many great scientists and mathematicians can you name you are both Islamic scholars and reputable scientists at the same time? And claim that they made their discoveries by decoding the scripture?

    Not only is it impractical, but unacceptable. Science is based on measurable, observable and provable data…not claims made by ancient scriptures. It’s ludicrous to think that if you just study the scripture hard enough, the base-pair sequence of the human genome would fall out of its pages into your lap.Recommend

  • Critical

    I’m totally confused here….
    First a person says Quran has given 70,000 fields of study..and it is the ultimate truth for all scientific related facts
    Then when some of the theories are against Quran,they tell us that it is false like evolution which still doesnt have concrete evidence
    But others pointed out common scientific phenomena disputed in Quran,they tell us to read the Quran in Arabic to get the correct meaning and translations are not correct….

    If Quran did have knowledge about everything,then Arabs would have ruled the entire world by harnessing the science from Quran and using it to build the universal Caliphate as they dreamed…Why was the Ottoman Turks defeated when Europe got out of their religious slavery??

    I dont know if I cross blasphemy if I tell that Quran is a religious book where the science written was 7th century..This is not common to Quran,but to all religious books as well…Just like the Encyclopaedia of 1950s may not be entirely true due to the new discoveries and inventions in the last 60 yrs…I do agree that few phenomena could have been explained in Quran,at the same time,few of them can be broken….
    If people rejoice at the former and shun the latter..The human society cannot move forward…Recommend

  • http://tradersutra.com Hariharmani

    @ Critical &Loneliliberal P.K.Sir,your formulation of sentences,logic and sheer force of your reasoned argument is potent and will disarm most argument,I’m one of your ardent fan,in fact people like you keep me coming to the site of T.E.,I blogg in several publication all over the world.I feel no objection to say,you are one unique mind.I used to be great fan of Christopher Hickins,unfortunately he passed away.Sam Harris is great thinker.Please keep your thought s going,you do contribute a lot.to Pakistan,of course you drive lot of guys batty too.Thanks a lot,have a good day.Recommend

  • Cynical

    Very well written.
    But then the comments from the warring trolls are getting more exiting than the blog itself.Recommend

  • Gullible Nomore

    @hariharmani:
    You got me wrong, i dont ridicule anyone, everyone has a right to believe what they will. I have a problem with people who start claiming all scientific knowledge as somethig that had already been foretold to them. I only ridicule people’s ideas, which mostly is based on indoctrination rather than mere logic and reason.. Recommend

  • Rex Minor

    Hariharmani

    You seem to be a happy go person, hoping things somehow work out especially through a change. You also indicate that this complication of languages etc are not required for the masses to understand philosophical mumbo jumbo. I think you are absolutely correct. The masses of people in the world need work, to feed themselves and their families. But I thought we were talking about the intellectuals scholars, scientists and people of vision who foresee and guide the destiny of masses for the good of the masss. Hegel said very clearly and sharply that yif you want to study his philosophy, the speculative logic, one must be conversant with German language and having had the chance of studying Kann philosophy and other German philosophers befor him. Equaly the most famous scientists of our times have not yet completed their work on so called God’s Particle. I therefoe cannot understand how people of some intellect can simplyoblivious to circumstance around him and resist learning which can only bring knowledge, improve communication and therefore enhance peace which we al desire. Have we not recently witnessed how the anglosaxons wrote a draft UNO resolution, got concurrence from other members of the security council, including Russia and China, and instantly started bombardment of the Libyan towns under the contol of Col Gaddafi, as well as Libyan armed forces, thereby causing death nd destruction of civilians , simply to control the oil wealth of this north african country? And since this episode Russia and China have caste twice their vetoes against the resolutions of Anglosaxons on Syria! There are many more examples of lack of communications among several countries which could spark off a conflict. We need more science and we need more communication and more understanding of each others cultures and language is the basic and the prerequisite for this task. Why must the muslims not learn arabic language if they are praying in arabic language. I mustlearn English to read Shalespear, andGerman to read Goethe and learn Persian to read Shahnameh and so on. Neither religion, or science nor languages are foreign to me. The only way I could learn about Moses life before he became the Prophet of God, is to learn the language of hieroglyphs, it is so simpe.peace be with you.

    Rex MinorRecommend

  • Rex Minor

    Loneliberal

    Sience is not foreign to me, nor is the anatomy of a human and a primate. The decodification of scriptures is possible by those who are the most enlightened one, not a simple foot soldier like me.This could take the time until eternity. Atheists are skeptic, the non believers, who in the absence of intellect and ‘Geist’, deny the existance of the creator, perhaps so ordained by God the creator.

    Remember humans have not yet been able to use more than 20% of their brain potential. Therefore, it is perhaps too early to indulge in complicatd Nature. Science is not static, and is subject to changes and revisions as we explore further and conduct clinical studies and establish facts and not similarities or thesis which cannot be substanciated. Darwin theory is dead and good so. Please do not forget, those who have left this world are going to stay dead for a longer period than those who are still alive.We have a lots of time yet to discover or rediscover what the scientists before our times did not discover. There is not and there must not be any conflict between Science and relgion.

    a good weekend!

    Rex MinorRecommend

  • Gullible Nomore

    @Rex Minor:
    So you’re saying darwin’s theory of evolution through natural selection is dead? yea… if it makes you sleep better at night then keep consoling yourself with this tripe…Recommend

  • kaalchakra

    Critical

    That is ridiculous. The holy Quran does not present the 7th century Arab science, but the science of all mankind for ever and for everywhere.

    Man, you need to offer an apology to all of us.Recommend

  • Rex Minor

    gullible nomore

    We are in 21st century man and should not be chasing the zoologist of views of the ancient times, which according to his own criterion is dead. His apes have remained apes and the evolution in the nature on earth and the universe has not yet ended.Just imagine if he had gone to Amazone region instead of Africa? The natural paradise on the banks of the longest river, which experiences only two seasons in a year; the dry season and the rainy season. Where one comes across the fish which is able to breathe in the water as well as outside the water, where trees remain submerged metres deep in the water during the rainy season and still survive because of hteir unusual roots which remain protected in water, and so on. There is so much for science to explore. In my opinion Charles Darwin was a raciast and just wanted to indicate the different stages of human development. I reckon that the afro american folks do not like his thesis as well.

    Rex MinorRecommend

  • http://tradersutra.com hariharmani

    Gullible Nomore and Critical,Rex Minor, I understand all 3 of you.I even have no hard feeling for Kaalchakra,though his one track radical ,all most blind belief, mind , does cause concern,but there is not much we can do.There are many,causes and events which some time bring swift in one thinking,it is rare but it can happen.I’m pretty certain,Rex Minor is one such person,as he has good mind and he can yet reach lofty height,he has not completely reached his zenith.The reason I say this,because it happened to me,as I got exposed to new ideas and thinking,granted it was a slow process.My wife is total opposite to me,we get along fine,as a matter of fact,because of my new found understanding,we rarely have conflict or work at cross purpose. live, & and let live.Tolerance,and mutual respect and civil manners are vital part of it.We all have our quirks,and our ways.I’m convinced beyond a shadow of doubt,the problem facing sub-continent ,middle-east and large part of Africa,is because of rigid belief on dogmatic religious dogmas,it prevents them from progressing,the priest and politician exasperates already bad situation further into tail spin,the only remedy is very good relevant,fact based education,and it is like proverbial saying,who will bell the cat,so they stay morbid,static and in rut.It is very frustrating,and for centuries like that and not likely to get better,that is very sad for all of us,we are going to see riots,killing,bombing,acts of terrorism and mass unrest as we have witnessed in Libya,sudan,Tunesia and now in Syria,it a cause and symptom at the same time.Pakistan has also become victim.What can we do,NOTHING?,God helps those who help themself,He has not directly intevened,not to my knowledge,and not likely to, soon either. Recommend

  • Gullible Nomore

    @Rex Minor:
    Hahahahaha! shows how much you actually know about Darwin. He went to South America and australia on his Beagle voyages! Besides, as i said before, whatever makes you sleep at night dude(ette)Recommend

  • Gullible Nomore

    @kaalchakra:
    Show me oh kaalchakra, the 21st century science in Quran please!Recommend

  • saad

    Loneliberal PK is incredibly intelligent and accurate in EVERY one of his/her posts. Please open your mind and understand this individual’s posts. (S)He is an example of an analytical and inquisitive approach to life. Recommend

  • http://tradersutra.com hariharmani

    Rex Minor,I stand by every thing I wrote.First of all,English is simple as well complex,I for one write very simple English,and I’m sure can articulate,and write in difficult to understand American slang.That will defeat the purpose,language is a modem,to communicate not to show off how smart,educated,knowledgeable and enlightened one is.I’m no Budha or Shakespear,Or Dante or Kante,or Voltire.They wrote great ever lasting literature, Treaties and poetry.I think you ,have not got detailed reading of Darwin,especially why all apes not become human,random choice,and natural selection,need to be studied as a subject,not superficial reading of it.One must be very careful making hear say blanket statement,in this internet age,most people cross check,and will surely repudiate,half-truth and non-sense.It will needlessly expose incomplete study,beside we do not know the vast information now available due to Google and P.C. and a curious mind and a nimble finger,lazy folks have no chance,sloth is one of the 6 deadly Sin,I once used to wonder,why Sloth was one of the deadly Sin? why being lazy is any bodies concern,it should be no sweat from any ones nose,now I understand,because it stunts intelligence and Wisdom.That is why.We,at our own peril,ignore the treasure at our finger tip.Google and Yahoo are two great search Engine.One can really sharpens ones intelligence,I often wonder,like Tolstoy,is life purposeless,I’m sometime overwhelmed by all the wonders,but then I realize,it is all worth it,as I open myself to all the wonders of Our visible Universe,just think about it,It is through us Human’s mind alone,Universe unfolds its hidden secrets,it gets its wonderful reconnititions through us,dogs and cats have no idea about the wonders of the Universe,so do not short change yourself in dogmatic one track religion,there is lot of truth in what Critical,Lonelilibral PK, say.They are good folks even if they are atheist or agnostic.They have a valid point,so do you..We have our common humanity which binds us,all,whether we appreciates or not.It is that invisible bond which makes me care for far off Pakistan and else where,as Lincoln said we must not be enemies,our better Angels of our nature will ultimately prevail for,our atleast next generation,I fondly hope..Amen.Good dayRecommend

  • Critical

    @kaalchakra:
    I’m sorry if I hurted your sentiments…But I just stated my viewpoints and never wanted to ridicule others..
    However,the phrase that Quran represents Science of mankind for ever is too much to fathom…Science is too large to be held even in a library of Congress…Saying that all science is encapsulated in one book is too far fetched…
    If thats the case,why is that most of the inventions post Islam were Europeans and Americans.when Arabs had the encyclopaedia of Science in hand?? Couldnt have the Ottoman Turks used the science to build weapons in WW1 as everyone knows the Turks empire broke after Europeans started using science and technology in war….If Quran has everything,Arabs could have invented nuclear weapons during the Crusades and won the holy war against Christians and formed the single Caliphate which Prophet dreamed of…
    Even the scientific facts said in Quran are all not true and some of them have been disproved…
    I know that muslims believe Quran as the word of God…But please dont mix the science part in contemporary world…Let Science continue to grow and keep our faiths to ourselvesRecommend

  • Ahsan

    Comments are far more interesting than the blog. Especially, Loneliberal PK, you’re making full sense to me!Recommend

  • kaalchakra

    Gullible Nomore

    Glad you asked, although disappointed that you asked to be shown merely a first glimpse of letter A of the alphabet when the knowledge of all Noble Prize winning science, literature, all knowledge of all time past, present, and future, present in the Holy Quran can be available to you in less than five minutes. Still if your neeyat is good, you can be blessed with the insight. Is your neeyat good?Recommend

  • Altaf Gohar

    @Urooj:
    I do believe that some of the theories has been proved by scientists. I was talking about Darwin’s theory of evolution. Darwin’s theory has not been proved yet. If you want an additional information on Darwin’s theory please visit http://www.windmillministries.org/theory-of-evolution . You will find all your answers and the people who think that there is no God and all the universe came into existence just by chance. They should visit http://www.windmillministries.org/frames/CH3A.htm and read the complete articles on “Does God exists”. I promise that you will get valuable information. If you don’t believe, its OK. At least you will get a lot of knowledge.

    Please visit these links read it and please don’t forget to reply me but after its reading.

    Thanks and have a good day.Recommend

  • Gullible Nomore

    @kaalchakra:
    Oh yes kaalchakra, my neeyat is as pure as it comes, please enlighten me!Recommend

  • Critical

    @kaalchakra:
    when the knowledge of all Noble Prize winning science, literature, all knowledge of all time past, present, and future, present in the Holy Quran

    I think I should stop arguing with you…I hope to find open minded muslims which whom I can put forth my doubts and get cleared…Looks like you’re a brain washed mullah who is living in an imaginary world where muslims are greatest men even if its Osama Bin Laden and every scientific fact originates from Quran,when you cannot quote even a single example for that….

    I think now I found out why muslims are so lagging behind in science…If most of them keep looking answers in Quran instead of trying to look at the logic of science..Or according to what you said,none of the muslim from 7th century could read Quran with correct “neeyat”,which I find it laughable….

    Personally,I love ur guys approach,while arguing,talk abt the greatness of Allah and Quran repeatedly and talk everything as haraam again and again till the opponent gets irritated and leaves you and then u rejoice that you won the argument

    P.S. I’m sorry mods for using harsh language and I hope it does get published…But I hope u find few good muslims to comment and donot approve someone who keep repeating the same nonsense and doesnt put forth even a single valid point…..Recommend

  • intelektual

    @Gullible Nomore:
    Wats ur point ? Light source “Noor” and Light energy “Noor” are two different things ! are U not familiar with multiple usage of the same word !! Also wat this has to do with God ??
    Also Quran is also very clear about Moon borrowing its light from the sun
    And u probably exceeded the word limit and got carried away i replied to ur questions in two seperate posts for the same reason !Recommend

  • Intelektual

    @Gullible Nomore:
    I never said word Noor means “Pure Energy” my point was “Light” is a scientifically Known form of Energy and as per Qura’n God is Noor ! And I used that word cuz u asked for scientific refrences ! Now instead of arguing on scientific merits u are restoring to linguistic limitations that do not even exist in the first place ! If you are so set on not accepting anythng contrary to your belief Y ask the questions..
    And as far as Evolution is concered the adaptability to 1ce surrounding is smethng I am truly convinced of itx a testement of the Creator’s intelligent design !
    The only part I and most religious ppl have problem with is evolution of Homosepians into Humans ! And I wont quote Quran to prove it wrong trust me I will do it on the rational & logical front.Recommend

  • Gullible Nomore

    @Intelektual:
    “evolution of Homosepians into Humans”
    Homosapiens is another term for humans, by the way…Recommend

  • Gullible Nomore

    @intelektual:
    Can you please quote the quranic verse where God is mentioned as noor please, so we all know the context? Thanks!Recommend

  • Intelektual

    @Gullible Nomore:
    ” Allah ho Noor us sama wat e wal arz ”
    And nops get ur science straight Homo sepians are supposed to be primal bipedal primate not that i believe that..Recommend

  • Intelektual

    @Gullible Nomore:
    Also there is a Whole sura e Noor look it up; thats the origin of that Ayat i quoted. Recommend

  • Gullible Nomore

    @intelektual:
    But for argument’s sake lets assume god is “light energy”. According to modern science, light first formed AFTER the big bang when B and W Bosons combined and formed photons! So you’re saying God came into existence after the big bang? Or did he change forms from another energy and became light?
    But lets forget that part also, lets say God is just energy, pure and simple. Then how does a form of energy forgive sins, performs miracles, listen to prayers etc? How does ENERGY become personal? Why does a form of energy is so concerned about what I do in bed, or how I behave or praise it? Perhaps this question is philosophical for you, but believe me, its purely scientific.

    Oh before I forget, Homo Sapiens is a taxonomical name for Humans, perhaps this might help you. http://tinyurl.com/22j6njRecommend

  • Gullible Nomore

    I guess ET mods don’t like it when I quote quranic verses. This is the third time my comments didn’t make it here… :(Recommend

  • Intelektual

    @Gullible Nomore:
    OMG !! you tell me where did the Big Bang came from Where did the B and W Bosons originated from ! How was it that parts from a blast stared revolving in defined orbits is it in accordance with Newtonian Physics? and some became stars some didn’t why? also not to ask the really scientific question where did life came from !
    How is it that out of millions of planets we have discovered, all originating from your so called Big Bang, only Earth has Life and only 1 species Intelligent ! Why?
    Why cant your science fix a Human like it fixes a Car ! That is by turning it off !
    Why is not a scientific question really and the truth is science cant handle it because there is no limit to Why?
    Also You are attempting to personify the Creator of Persons !
    And what you are asking me is Why does God Care !! and some how thats scientific !

    I am not going to argue with you on terminology according to your article the distinction is late and modern ! My point was about the Late Homo Sepians ! I do not agree that Humans were developed in stages originating actually from Primates cuz thats illogical ! Recommend

  • Intelektual

    @Gullible Nomore:
    I just pointed it as a direction for your understanding I never dared limiting God even in theory to just a form of energy ! Don’t point your assumptions at me like that !
    The primary thing you need to understand is that U asked me about God The Creator so i assumed U knew the primary and given ideas about the concept of the “The Master Architect”.
    If your intentions are just pointless counter argument you want to win at any cost ! then like I said dont bother asking me go argue with a naiive Kid with limited Knowledge ! and a limited mindset like yours. Recommend

  • Intelektual

    @Gullible Nomore:
    Why did u use Naoozubillah in ur orignal post ! Y are you moving so further away from those questions !
    And answer me this how does some dependent organic materials get to be intelligent and personal ! U and I are we not mix of some perisable compounds yet we get to care Why and how !Recommend

  • Intelektual

    @Gullible Nomore:
    I used late and modern as Antonyms my mistake in my defence I was enraged and I am only Human :d all the pun intendedRecommend

  • Intelektual

    @Gullible Nomore:
    Also I never dared limiting God to some energy form You are alone in that assumption of yours ! Recommend

  • kaalchakra

    Intektual bhai

    Only if Gullible nomore cared to read sura al noor he will know that it establishes the concept of Allah as pure energy and everything else in physics, beyond any shadow of human doubt -

    It starts with a clear admonition from Allah, the pure noor -

    The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication― flog each of them with a hundred stripes: let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah. Make sure this flogging is witnessed by other Muslims……and ends with instructions regarding women whom Muslims’ right hand possesses.

    This life at its best and most detailed could only be conceptualized by the Purest and All-Knowing Energy.Recommend

  • Gullible Nomore

    @Intelektual:
    We don’t know what happened before the big bang, but fret not, science is searching and researching for answers. You ask all those questions about where did life come from and blah blah. But ignored the original question of where did God come from. Since god is not energy anymore, because you don’t want to limit him (or whatever). So somehow he was hanging around, got bored and thought of creating such a vast universe with billions of galaxies and trillions of stars and created humans to worship him, nice! Your question about humans being the only ‘intelligent’ specie is nothing but naiive. Looking at the vastness of the universe chances of another intelligent civilization is vast, we havent discovered then yet because, lets face it, out technologies are merely a few decades old. The universe is 15 billion years old.
    At the end of it all, there might actually be a being or a phenomenon that created the universe but untill thats proven, the quest will continue and thats the beauty of science that it doesnt finding answers because some people with their primitive thinking think there is an all powerfull being sitting somewhere controlling everything.Recommend

  • Gullible Nomore

    @kaalchakra:
    I did read it and quoted it but ET doesnt appreciate the use of quranic reference in a negative light, it seems.Recommend

  • Gullible Nomore

    Buggers! Sorry for the typos, its a pain to type on a phone…Recommend

  • Intelektual

    @Gullible Nomore: Recommend

  • Intelektual

    @Gullible Nomore:
    I have already answered your question That God is Pure Energy not just some form of it ! And Energy is something as proven by your science that can not be created nor destroyed ! it exists and has existed forever and forever will !
    Well atleast you got one thing right ! Science hence you DO NOT KNOW !
    Science which is limited ! your technology that is limited ! just like your mindset that is limited ! who made these so limited measures the ultimate test and decider of truth for your unlimited questions !
    Existance of Trillions of stars and Blah blah
    Your assumptions of Whether God was bored or not are not stupid and naiive ??
    If you fail to see the purpose of existance in your life and that of the universe, does not mean everyone is soo lost like you are again do not assume things you have no idea about !
    and before questioning things you can not disprove due to your limitations that are so many by the way learn to keep an open mind and respect for others religions!
    In the matter of existance of aliens I should look at the chances and be considerate of your limits ! what about earth itself why is just one specie intelligent here !Recommend

  • Intelektual

    @Gullible Nomore:
    Also please do enlighten me how was the big bang proved !
    What experiments were conducted to prove it !
    And perhaps if you would let me know, how is your science reserching pre Big bang and pre 15 billion year events, it ill be easier for me not to Fret !
    How surprizingly capable of your science was it, to have found 15 billion years of info when it is simply incapable of finding what exists right infront of it in the same timeframe aliens nah but somehow You Believe ! Life Nah yet its looking, how ! who knows !
    And FYI you didnt answer any of my questions ! must be your limitations ! Right ! Recommend

  • IntelektualI

    The orignal article is about evolution and religion. Since the two are at odds with each other I would refrain from using religious rules and beliefs to disprove it.
    Evolution is supposedly directed towards survival and betterment of the species Then answer me this:
    1. How is the human more capable of surviving in the wild without fur and claws. Because the civilized world came after man !
    2. what natural environment was the Human compling to that it decided to loose fur loose claws and grow brains !
    3. If intelligence and no fur was the natural necessity of survival why havnt any other specie progressed towards it !
    4. Slight variance in DNA species exist side by side Today as well how come finding similar gene fossils conclude their Evolution from a single line of specie !

    I know alot of web refrences could be made to stall and prolong and loose the point of argument and loads of scientific Jargon can render this argument uncomprehendable for the regular folks so plz if you hav the facts to support your theory answer in a simple language with the conclusions from all ur reserches not the actual reserch itself !Recommend

  • Gullible Nomore

    @IntelektualI:
    “God is pure energy” and you can prove this by referring us to a bronze age manual? And you don’t see your hypocrisy in that? WOW! The burden of proving God’s existence is on you not me, since you’re making tall claims of his existence and using modern science for it. Same modern science, by the way that, in your opinion, is limited and is man made or whatever. LOL!
    Human mind is limited and there’s no embarrassment in that. The beauty of not knowing has brought us airplanes, computers, electricity, medicine, etc. What has the arrogance of ‘knowing the existence of a pure energy’ brought the mankind? Oh yea ZILCH! But i know you’re going to bring the issue of morality. Again, even that is based on faith nothing more. But in all honesty, i care less what you ‘believe’ in, you can believe a pwerful flying monkey created the universe, that would be an equally ‘true’ statement as an all powerful overlord creating it.
    ‘ll be answering your questions about evolution in my next comment.Recommend

  • Gullible Nomore

    @Intelektual,
    Actually, i’m not going to delve into yet another debate of evolution with a believer because that has been beaten down in other blog posts, that too not anywhere else, but right here on ET. Besides, the original article is NOT about evolution and religion its about separation of SCIENCE and religion!
    http://blogs.tribune.com.pk/story/10256/waiting-for-evolution-in-pakistan%E2%80%99s-classrooms/
    http://blogs.tribune.com.pk/story/7975/evolution-is-false-and-the-sun-goes-round-the-earth/

    As for Big Bang, there are plenty of observational evidences for it besides countless calculations. To name a few that are easier to understand and can be written here:
    1) Cosmic microwave background radiation – Which is basically the remnants of the heat generated in the big bang. We are constantly bombarded with this radiation, if you want proof of that, all you need to do is turn your tv on and change channels until you come across a station in between channels which is not “tuned in” and you’ll see just static. Part of that static is the cosmic microwave radiation.
    2) Expanding universe – evident by the red shifting of light specters of distant galaxies and stars showing that those galaxies are moving away from each other. By which it is safely deduced that those galaxies must actually be closer together.
    3) Evolving universe – Old galaxies were different (primitive) compared to the ones we see today. This has also been observed by hubble telescope which has seen some 12 billion years in the past.Recommend

  • Gullible Nomore

    @IntelektualI:
    Regardless of your condescendence and lack of scientific knowledge, i have to give it to you that you’re trying to find answers and not shying away from the conversation like many others do and thats a good quality to have! So go ahead pat yourself in the back. So what the heck, I’ll answer your questions.

    1) Apes developed brains which gave them the edge in surviving without claws in the wild. They were able to find more innovative ideas to get to resources than other species.
    2) Humans/primates didn’t decide to grow or lose anything, this is what is called NATURAL SELECTION! Early apes (which humans evolved from – i’ll call them apes from now on) were in competition for resources with other similar species and to have more innovative ideas to get resources they evolved bigger brains. Those apes also happened to be carnivores (unlike others in competition), this gave them the edge in developing bigger more efficient brains (due to protein intake). By the way, brains came long before shedding of the furs
    3) Depends on what your definition of “intelligence” is. If your definition is based on what Humans are capable of then it definitely is not the sole criteria for “survival”. Intelligence is just a byproduct of bigger frontal cortex, but there are plenty of species doing just fine without the equivalent human intelligence. There are plenty of functions that we severely lack in, like vision and hearing for example. Having the best of those weren’t too important for our survival hence we didn’t evolve them, they were very important for birds or felines, therefore they developed those characteristics better.
    Apes were travelers and hunters, having no fur on the body was just a better way to keep the body cool, especially when the sub-saharan temperatures could rise considerably, also less fur mean the skin being more sensitive and receptive to outside world. So gradually as those apes evolved they lost their fur. It didn’t happen over night, however, it took over hundreds of thousands of years (if not millions) to happen.
    4) I don’t know whether I understood the question correctly or not but I’ll take a dab at it. You won’t find modern human fossils prior to some 200,000 years-ago region, you won’t find Idaltu fossils prior to some half a million years ago (mya) region, so on and so forth. This progression gives a very clear indication that the species either evolved into something else or just got extinct. The subtle changes in each of those fossils is also a clear indication that with time those species changed to adapt to the environment they were in, hence evolving into a new specie. No specie just appears on the face of the planet out of no where, there’s always a lineage/progression. Furthermore, finding lineage is not solely based on fossil records (although a big chunk of it is). Presence of retroviruses is another way of finding lineage besides others which I won’t go into.
    If this still doesn’t answer your questions, then what can i say?Recommend

  • Intelektual

    @Gullible Nomore:
    U have short term memory loss I am not proving anything I was answering your question and since YOU asked for a scientific answer I made refrences of science to Validate whats written in the Quran ! and FYI Non Believers are much more primitive then Quran !
    U are the hypocrite here who cant see that in order to argue What God is all about U would have to admit there is a God ! Also ur orignal post said “Naozubillah” is that not Hypocricy !!
    You never sticked to your point never validated any of your comments my point was the Truth Your argument changes in every post into pointless Jibrish !
    As for existance of God this Universe did not made itself ! No one in this Mortal realm can ! this elaborate and detailed Life its sustainabilty is way more complex and Grand to be a co-incidence if you fail to see the simple logic that nothing makes itself ! Thats your stupidity !
    We have electricity so forget God ! What a killer argument there !
    FYI most of the foundations of modern sciences were laid by Muslim Scientist !
    What has your Crappy theory added to the technology ! did big bang helped design microchips ! or was it evolution that is curing all ! No No and again No yes the Al chemists did add alot to every field !
    Quran is still read by reserchers and Scientists !Recommend

  • Intelektual

    @Gullible Nomore:
    Another astounding proof of your Hypocricy ! When you said “You will answer” what you meant was no U wont !
    Cosmic Microwave radiation can have only one source that’s Big Bang ! Y cuz u said so ?
    Universe is expanding thats now agreed How does that relate to its origin ?? how can U ascertain where it started and also is the Velocity of this expansion high enough to credit it to some Huge blast !!
    You are also aging and changing if you noticed so is your house car and everythng guess tht means U and them were made by a Bang too.. ! rite !
    as always u failed to answer my questions ! How come particles of some blast decided to stop at some point and revolve in defined orbits !
    What about your very scientific laws of Newton ! is big Bang “theory” compatible with these !
    How come none of these particles are alike !
    Also I have never heard of nor wittnessed a blast that Created Blasts only destroy ! Just an observation !Recommend

  • Intelektual

    @Gullible Nomore:
    “i’m not going to delve into yet another debate of evolution with a believer”
    Translation you have no credible answers for my logical questions !
    I stated then and there I am not going to bring my beliefs and Faith into this argument so my believer status has nothing to do with it !
    And when i said orignal article I meant the links you posted ! and they were inconclusive because of reasons i posted with my questions !Recommend

  • http://myspace.com/taravadu Kulamarva Balakrishna

    @Dali:
    Vienna,March 30,2012
    All commenting friends, do know the energy & mass remain mating
    always the result is the spurting light of energy that can manifest in
    infinite ways. Kashmiri pundits realized it in the same way the pundits
    of Bihar+Aasam, who ate rhino meat when they could not afford cow´s
    meat! This classic science is now being validated at CERN´s Large
    Hadron Collider, LHC at Meyrin, near Geneva. If you can manage go
    there,witness from close quarters what is written in three words
    “bhava pratyayo videhaprakritilayanam” meaning bodyless light, or
    submerged nature is enjoying the fruits of yoga without deliberately
    practicing it. Do remember, you are dependant on CERN because
    it was there website was born.
    Taravadu Taranga Trust for Media Monitoring TTTMM India
    –Kulamarva BalakrishnaRecommend

  • Intelektual

    @Gullible Nomore:
    “you can prove this by referring us to a bronze age manual”
    I was not proving anything I was answering ur questions ! and No I proved whats written in Quran by You science ! Now when u have nothing else to say ur point is Quran is old ! lemme assure You Non-believers are way older than Quran !
    And hypocricy is asking What God is about when you do not even agree God exists !
    The universe with all its systems and detailed grandure is the logical proof of God’s existance ! If you are two blind to see the simple logic that nothing material and perishable makes itself Its your Stupidity !Recommend

  • Intelektual

    @Gullible Nomore:
    The one who is more advantageous may be your materialistic criteria but as I stated mine is the Truth !
    Also by your measure FYI the modern technologies were initiated by the Muslim Scientists ! All-chemists solidified the foundations of Maths Physics Chemistry & medicine and FYI ur hypothetical theories never contributed towards development of microchips or medicine !
    The religion does not change true That is because the truth does not ! Good and bad are not subject to time ! neither is the history subject to variations with time ! What has happend has already happend !Recommend

  • Intelektual

    I Object to the Moderators for allowing ridicule of someone’s Faith and religion via that blasphemous comparison made by @Gullible Nomore
    While you keep censoring my replies !Recommend

  • Gullible Nomore

    @Intelektual:
    You’re not alone, i did write a detailed response to your very basic evolution questions, which for some reason got modded. In anycase, wth your faith based reasoning (sans evidence) there’s no point in arguing with you. As Carl Sagan said “You can’t convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on any evidence, it is based on a deep seated need to believe.”

    By the way, to prove your God’s existence you should not need any science. You have belief in his existence so please stick with that. Specially since you know absolutely nothing about science. All the respect I actually gained for you was lost with “basis for all scientific knowledge were started by muslim scientists” (or something to tgat effect). Also means you know absolutely nada about history outside of what you were taught in Pakistan’s social studies course books (if you’re Pakistani i.e, if not then the quality of education in your country is concerning)
    The next time you use an anti-biotic medicine, keep in mind that it was made possible by evolutionary theory. I’d suggest you do your own research.Recommend

  • Gullible Nomore

    @Intelektual:
    “Cosmic Microwave radiation can have only one source that’s Big Bang ! Y cuz u said so ?”
    No not because I say so, because hundreds of astrophysicist with thousands of hours of research and calculations say so. But good, you’re not just taking what I’m saying at it’s face value. However, you should read some scientific books on these subjects and see for yourself what “EVIDENCE” actually means. Gracias!Recommend

  • Intelektual

    @Gullible Nomore:
    “faith based reasoning (sans evidence)”
    What did I submitted as proof that was Faith based !
    I never brought in my Faith until U asked for Faith based question those questions !
    And what ever faith based answer I gave I substantiated them through Science !
    Look who is talking about respect ! U compared the God that billions believe in to what ? how was that respectful of someone elses ideologies !
    You lost respect da first time you cherry picked my points and ignored the rest and started to contradict your own self ! I am so sory to see that someone Vouching for science has no logical reasoning lacks scientific thought process and simply relies on excuses like I knew the answer but it got Moderated to hide his lack of plausible reason ! If your answer was moderated You could have rephrased it 2 limit ur word count and minus objectionable balance !
    I am gonna answer in next post oh i wont answer oh I dont know but i am proud of not knowing Oh i dont care Oh O i replied guess i do !Recommend

  • Intelektual

    @Gullible Nomore:
    Unsubstantiated claims and assumptions about religion, about science, about myself about the level of education prevailing in my country..
    All excuses in absence of a decent logical answer … try again …cuz
    Your compounded negligence is not helping your case ..
    Also about microbiology level of Evolution ! You need to learn to read better cuz I have already stated that I do agree with it 100% and its the testament of an intelligent design by the Creator !
    The only part I objected to was Human related theories that too on logical and scientific grounds Beliver or not does Not Matter for the sake of this argument ! Like I have stated twice !Recommend

  • Intelektual

    @Gullible Nomore:
    ““basis for all scientific knowledge were started by muslim scientists” (or something to tgat effect).”
    I never said that ! neither anythng to that effect, again ur own non-beliver mind is believing in stuff that does not exist talk about irony ..!
    What I said was that modern technologies “not sciences” that you reffered to were initiated by Muslim scientist ! And they solidified the foundations of sciences which means that those foundations existed already for them to have solidified !

    Useless and cheap gimmicks !
    Come up with better excuses for your inherently limited mindset and Knowledge ! and lack of answers !
    about Cosmic radiation: No refrences to any scientific Journals or research means its still just cuz u said so ! and Yes i am not gonna take your word for it try again !Recommend

  • Intelektual

    @Gullible Nomore:
    ignore the typosRecommend

  • kaalchakra

    Intelektual brother

    It is a great bigotry of unbelievers to assume that only illiterate believers think like you. Most don’t realize that the more a believer gets educated, the more he believes.Recommend

  • Gullible Nomore

    @Intelektual:
    “I was not proving anything I was answering ur questions ! and No I proved whats written in Quran by You science ! ”

    You proved what that God is light energy? or God is pure energy? Because the quranic ayat didn’t say either. If it was light energy then that came after the big bang, because there were no components prior to big bang which would create light. So again wat did you prove?Recommend

  • Gullible Nomore

    @Intelektual:
    I’m glad you asked for citations, and i’m also happy you’re not taking my words for anything, all good signs. Here’s one from NASA
    http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/universe/bbtestscmb.html

    For further reading about the whole cosmological standard model you can review this from the encyclopedia of Astronomy and astrophyics:
    http://www.astro.caltech.edu/~george/ay21/eaa/eaa-cosmology.pdf

    In case you’re wondering, here’s the scientific journal on human evolution
    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/journal/00472484

    Oh! you were right I didn’t read your statement about the muslim scientists’ contribution carefully before jumping the gun… There’s no denying their contribution, but what I perceived (albeit incorrectly) was that you were attributing all scientific advancements and discoveries to them. Recommend

  • intelektual

    @Gullible Nomore:
    you really need to learn to write nd read better cuzz you seem to hav no idea what was your orignal question about ! nd i have already answered these question !Recommend

  • intelektual

    @Gullible Nomore:
    also it does not matter how logical or correct i am if you are just going to bring irrelevent ridiculous biased and disrespectful couter arguments just to stall ..
    Its quite clear you cant even listen to anything contrary to ur Non beliefs.Recommend

  • Gullible Nomore

    @intelektual:
    Keep telling yourself that…my original question was, what is God? what is the proof of his existence? And if there is a god why does he want his minions to praise him (im paraphrasing here, ofcourse)? Your answer, god is energy, you “proved” that by quoting an ambiguous (at best) ayat from Quran. Why does god want what it wants from us, your answer for that was “thats a naiive question” LOL! and you’re calling that “answers” to my questions?
    You asked me evidences for big bang i provided those
    You asked me kindergarten level questions about evolution i answered those (scroll up some 5-10 comments you’ll see it)
    You asked me to cite my claims about big bang, I even provided you with those, and just for kicks and giggles, provided peer reviewed scientific journal for human evolution. What have you provided do far? Your opinions and an ayat from quran??? lol!
    So once again, keep CONSOLING yourself with your tripe! Peace!Recommend

  • intelektual

    @Gullible Nomore:
    Ans 1 & 2: God is Pure Energy as referred by Quran as “Noor” Energy exists and all the matter is made from energy hence “matter was created by Energy”(scientific fact), which itself is not created nor can be destroyed (Scientific fact)! God always has and always will be ! everything that has an end can rationally be believed to have a beginning as we experience in this Mortal Realm but The Only Being Who has no end has no beginning either !
    I dont C any ayat check ur eye side.

    Ans 3: “Free will” ever heard of it! God knows all very true but we know nothing that is the point! Knowing nothing what we do, out of our free will makes us deserving of heaven and hell …
    Also there is “Duwa” and other ways that can change your fate altogather..

    Ans 4: God does not want nor needs our prayers for himself ! The point is He disserves to be prayed by us as our limited way of recognizing Him as our creator and pay our respect! The point is again us! Our existence is His Creation and all the other luxuries as well hence being thankful we pray and not doing so would be insolent and wrong of us and we could be punished for our insolence..Recommend

  • Gullible Nomore

    @intelektual:
    “God is Pure Energy as referred by Quran as “Noor” ”
    Where did you get this, from an ayat or somewhere else? When I asked you to quote it what did you do, QUOTED an AYAT from sura noor! You really are a piece of work arent you. Noor is light (whether quran meant source or energy is up for debate) but what you did there is wishful thinking and twisting of word definitions, nothing more. Since noor is light and light is a ‘form of energy’ therefore god must be ‘pure energy’ what kind of a derivation is that? Besides, modern science does not know where energy came from, whether it was there before the bang or if it was created after it. But you have figured it out! Bravo!! You should get a Nobel Prize
    Free will – if your definition of god is that he’s “the all knowing”, then im afraid there’s no such thing as free will. God being all knowing already knows what you are going to choose out of your ‘free will’ even before you were born. So technically, he knows if you’re going to end up in hell or heaven. So when he created your ‘soul’ he knew every last detail of all your actions down to what you’ll choose. If he didn’t know, then he can’t be all knowing, if he knew, then the concept of free will is in jeopardy!
    Duwa – by duwa, are you asking god to change his mind? And if he grant you your duwa by changing his mind, didn’t he already know it before hand? If he had already planned to grant you that duwa then again we get into the above mentioned paradox!
    Dear ET mods, please publish this comment. I’ll appreciate it! Shukrya!Recommend

  • Intelektual

    @Gullible Nomore:
    Universe did not make itself ! Its too complex and detailed and balanced to come out of some blast that can only destroy (No ayat) ! Ur theory which has NOT been proved and is in violation of proved Newtonian physics only attempts to answer how ! that too with nearly absoloute Zero of circumstantial evidance (CMW thats its value as per Nasa) Which still leves the question of Who unanswered !

    Recepie of a Cake does not absolve the need of a Baker !

    Simple Logic not one of Your strong pursuits!

    And Yes Quran could sound ambiguous to “U” but that does not make It is so again thats one of Ur limitations !

    U are asking Me who and Y baked the cake and urself are replying with the recepie that too incomplete and at odds with ur own field of study.Recommend

  • Intelektual

    @Gullible Nomore:
    Did you fail to see the language used in Your so called Proving Citations
    “Might Be”, “Should have been” nothing there is said with any amount of certinity ! Also the linkages made are Vague and there is no proved corelation !
    Its still a lottt of Faith on the part of a Non Beliver !
    Let me state a few of ur limitations !
    “Given the assumption that the matter in the universe is homogeneous and isotropic”
    “The Big Bang Model does not attempt to describe that region of space significantly beyond our horizon – space-time could well be quite different out there. ”
    “It is possible that the universe has a more complicated global topology than that which is portrayed here”
    “the so-called critical density”
    OMG So many uncertinaties and Contradictions ! I am forced to think have you read it urself !!Recommend

  • Intelektual

    @Gullible Nomore:
    Also kindly let me know which Kindergarten did you go to where Human evolution was a part of syllabus !
    Exageration is not helping your case sory..
    And what U have provided is from “I said so”, to “Nasa said so” without even critically looking at what it actually said !
    Also I have read all ur comments cud not find any one of my questions answered ! yes there were excuses “I ll answer in next”, “no I wont answer” and the classic “It got Moderated” !Recommend

  • Intelektual

    @Gullible Nomore:
    The quranic Ayat was not addressed to the world way before the world knew the concept of energy ! and it was taught in a manner that could be understandable to all ! the only easiest understanding was and still is through what all can see and That is Light !
    Also Energy can change form ! thats a scientific fact and phenomenon the same light that heats earth can generate electricity ! S0 How is it relevent if Quran said Light ! Energy is Energy no matter what form!! Do U actually know anything about Science or did U skipped all the practicle knowledge to skip to some theoratical Beliefs !
    God Knows ALL But Free Will still applies to Humans What has God’s knowing got to do with my Knowledge ! How is my free will in Jeopardy When I DONT Know !! I have intelligence, I have the means to make my Choice ! God is Not directly influencing any of my decisions how is My Free will in Jeopardy ! Duwa and sadqa are a way for betterment thts why one should do it just assuming its written does not get it actually done ! and God has not decided for our afterlife’s He will make those decisions on the day of Judegement ! But He alone will !Recommend

  • Intelektual

    @Gullible Nomore:
    U urslf said U dont know what was before Big Bang Yet u say light came after big bang ! If U dont know How can u make that claim !
    Also a complete understanding of God is like attempting to quantify Infinity ! if You can do that I still wont be able to answer all UR questions about God !
    U tell me what part of Science were ur questions ! And I will give you a complete scientific answer ! sans my belief system or any Quranic refrences !Recommend

  • Gullible Nomore

    @Intelektual:
    All of your jibber jabber is doing is showing your lack of scientific knowledge. I never claimed science knows all, but what it do know is based on evidences and conclusions based on observations. Scientists didn’t wake up one fine morning and said ‘hey i think there is a black hole out there in space” or “OMG! i had a dream that light travels at 186000 mi/sec”. The point is, what we don’t know, drives our curiosity to find out. Recommend

  • Intelektual

    @Gullible Nomore:
    “All of your jibber jabber is doing is showing your lack of scientific knowledge”
    Like any of the questions or reasoning you offered were even remotely scientific !
    again another no good excuse 2 hide behind.Recommend